THE KOSHER TERROIR

Season 4 · Episode 30

An Intimate Spanish Wine Tasting with Viña Memorias

Host: Simon Jacob  ·  Featuring winemaker Armando of Viña Memorias (D.O.P. Utiel-Requena, Valencia, Spain)

| 00:09 | Cold open & welcome — a prayer for the soldiers; into the high-altitude vineyards of Valencia
| 01:52 | From rosé to old vines: how the lineup shifts
| 02:22 | Bobal explained: how old vines change the clusters
| 04:20 | Alenar Blanco — Macabeo (a.k.a. Viura) & the winemaker's many names
| 05:55 | Evolving the 20%: Sauvignon Blanc, Chardonnay, now Xarel·lo
| 06:33 | Valencia & the Utiel-Requena appellation (two towns)
| 07:08 | The whites' philosophy: freshness, Xarel·lo, Parellada & stainless steel
| 09:25 | Aging, release timing & minimal intervention
| 10:14 | Altitude & 'the Jerusalem of Valencia' (767–800 m)
| 11:58 | What 'Altos Levantinos' means
| 12:47 | Alkunya & the tinaja: clay vessels made by hand
| 13:46 | The Star of David in the clay — Spain's hidden Jewish heritage
| 14:52 | Lees aging & bâtonnage on the Alkunya
| 19:40 | Tinaja closure, micro-oxygenation & topping up
| 20:43 | Georgia, the Phoenicians & ancient clay vessels
| 22:42 | Tinaja vs. inox: pioneers since 2016 & the oldest winemaking sites
| 24:47 | Alenar Tinto — a summer red from Bobal
| 26:22 | Garnacha: the chameleon grape & its regions
| 27:33 | Pizarra (slate) soils — salinity vs. minerality
| 29:57 | Old-vine Bobal, flint & the all-Bobal philosophy
| 31:01 | Direct-to-consumer in Israel
| 32:52 | Vintage verticals & aging in the bottle
| 33:04 | American vs. French oak — and what terroir really means
| 36:30 | Crianza, Reserva, Gran Reserva: timing, not quality
| 38:45 | Magus Duopole — Bobal + mountain Shiraz
| 41:24 | Keeping alcohol low: altitude, long cycle & the diurnal swing
| 43:52 | Finca Zerezal & the phylloxera story (pre-phylloxera vines)
| 46:50 | Single-vineyard soils: calcareous vs. clay
| 48:45 | 'Cherry orchard' & the family's Aix-en-Provence story
| 53:42 | Ladino, the painter Gilbert Rigaud & the labels
| 55:11 | Yunikko: 100% pre-phylloxera Bobal; Magus Duopole's meaning
| 56:31 | Brut Reserva: how to taste the sparkling, the right way
| 57:51 | The Gran Reserva to come (~5 years)
| 01:01:28 | Closing & subscribe

Corrected Transcript

[00:09] Simon: Welcome to the Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, no matter where you are, please take a moment to pray for the safe return home of all our soldiers. If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're relaxing at home, please open up a delicious bottle of kosher wine, pour a glass, sit back and relax. Welcome back to the Kosher Terroir. I'm your host, Simon Jacob. In this episode, we take you on a sensory journey straight into the high-altitude vineyards of Valencia, Spain. Join us for an exclusive behind-the-scenes wine-tasting conversation with passionate winemaker Armando from Viña Memorias. Discover the vibrant world of Spanish kosher wine as we explore the unique characteristics of native grape varieties like Bobal and Macabeo. From the crisp, refreshing notes of clay-aged whites to the rich, elegant structures of old-vine reds, you'll learn how climate, history, and minimalist intervention come together to create pure perfection in a bottle. Pour yourself a glass, sit back, and immerse yourself in the authentic flavors and fascinating stories behind Viña Memorias.

[01:52] Armando: That's a 2024. Soon we'll get the 2025 — we let the wines, including the rosé, rest and develop in the bottle a little before release. Everything we do from now on is going to be old vines. The expression — we'll see it later.

[02:22] Guest: More intensive flavors come from an older vine — is that true to say?

[02:28] Armando: I think you'll have more concentration, and more balance and elegance in the wines. With Bobal there are so many parameters. It's like an architect: when you're going to build a house, there are so many parameters — what type of cement, how big you want it. Wine is a little the same. Bobal is a great variety, but when the vines are young they bring big clusters — and not just big clusters, but a large number of grapes per cluster. So you get a big cluster with a high number of grapes, and it becomes a bit compact. As the vines grow older, the clusters get smaller and the number of grapes — this is very important, maybe the most important thing — is much lower. So you see a bit more air getting in, and more balanced clusters. Why? Because then the grapes inside the cluster also ripen, not just the ones on the outside. So age really helps you get more balanced clusters, and therefore better wines. This is a Macabeo. All our whites now are made with Xarel·lo.

[04:16] Guest: Okay — with this wine, is it not the same varietal?

[04:20] Armando: Here it's probably the only wine that we blend. This one — the Alenar white — is always Macabeo. Macabeo is a great variety from Spain, mainly from the Spanish coast. And each grape variety… my name is Armando, but some people call me Itzik; I have a middle name, Robert, so some family call me Robert. It's the same with grape varieties — each one has a few names. Macabeo is well known on the Spanish coastline, where it's one of the most popular varieties, but it's also known as Viura in the Rioja area. Same grape variety — but in Rioja there's a bit less sun and more Atlantic humidity, while on the Mediterranean coast we have more sun and more Mediterranean influence. So the expression differs a bit: on the Mediterranean it's more floral, with more flower notes; in Rioja it's a little more steady. Same grape, two different terroirs, two different names. So this one is always 80% Macabeo, and then there's a grape variety called Xarel·lo — with an X. Xarel·lo is very typical of Catalonia and Valencia.

[05:48] Guest: It's the only one you really keep, I think — you don't change it. So every year you keep the same product.

[05:55] Armando: We play with this one — with the 20%. Many years ago, in 2021, we did Sauvignon Blanc. In 2022 we did Chardonnay for the 20%, because the 2022 vintage for Chardonnay was crazy in Spain — in my region, in Valencia. And since 2023 we've been using Xarel·lo, because it's more authentic with what we want to express. The expression is exactly what we wanted.

[06:30] Guest: The region is called Valencia — or is that just the city?

[06:33] Armando: Valencia is the city and also the province. And my appellation is called Utiel-Requena.

[06:40] Guest: Ah yeah, I saw that online when I was researching. How do you pronounce it? Utiel-Requena. What does it mean — two towns?

[06:53] Armando: Utiel and Requena — two villages, close to each other.

[06:58] Guest: And this is the name of the wine?

[07:08] Armando: What we want in our wines, especially with the Alenar — it has a lot of expression, but we want lighter wines. We want a wine you can really feel on the beach on a hot, humid day: you open it and it's refreshing, yet still expressive. Xarel·lo is also a variety used very little — mainly a bit in Catalonia and a little in Valencia, and almost nowhere else. In Champagne there are three main grape varieties used. Most Champagnes are blanc de blancs, like Chardonnay, or made with Pinot Meunier. Exactly. So in Spain we have Macabeo, which is a bit like the Chardonnay — the one used the most — and then Xarel·lo, and then Parellada, which is used very little. So these three whites you're having now… with the reds it's all stainless steel. What we try to do here is keep maximum fruitiness. It's pure stainless steel — inox — tanks. But there are also wines that we give some aging in the tank and in the bottle before releasing. So it's not a wine you'll find on the market on January 1st — usually it goes to market around April or May. Sometimes it stays a bit longer, but for the Alenar it's important that you get maximum expression of the grape variety, and the inox allows that. It's fresher, and because stainless steel has no porosity, it won't allow any oxidation — even micro-oxidation — so the wine won't go in a different direction; it keeps the fruitiness.

[09:22] Guest: Then it's probably only in there for, like, three months or something?

[09:25] Armando: Usually it stays a maximum of three or four months, and then at least another three or four months in the bottle. I think the time in the bottle for these kinds of wines is very important. For example, the rosé I'm selling — finishing now — is the 2024. Until mid-July, I won't start selling the 2025. Here in Israel, the Rosé 2025 was already on the shelves on January 1st. We give the wines a little time in the bottle; I think it's important. And for those who get certain headaches from wine — forget about it.

[10:14] Armando: What we do here is work with minimal intervention, as much as kosher winemaking allows. That's why I say: for those who get any kind of headache, I challenge them to finish the whole bottle today and call me tomorrow to see how they feel. My family and I love drinking lots of different wines, and what we really enjoy is not drinking the same wine we love every time, but drinking the wine we love at the right moment. On an easy, sunny day, when you want something fresh, with good acidity, light — you go for something like this. But if you want a white to sit with — with fish, or with a complex white sauce — and by the way, a very dry white can also go with meat. We're located in a place that's funny, and now that we're in Jerusalem it's easier to compare: we're in the Jerusalem of Valencia, let's say. Valencia is the Tel Aviv, and our vineyards are the Jerusalem. So we're at 767, up to 800 meters.

[11:58] Guest: Oh, that's where the number comes from. What does Altos Levantinos mean?

[12:03] Armando: Altos means 'high.' Levante — we're the Spanish Levante. The Mediterranean Levant is Israel, Lebanon, and so on. The Spanish Levante is my region, Valencia.

[12:20] Guest: So how do you translate Levantinos as a whole?

[12:25] Armando: The Levantine hills. It signifies the Levant of Spain, and the hills — it tells you the region. This is a very terroir-driven project, so everything is built around the geography.

[12:47] Guest: Everyone loves this wine. My stepdad doesn't even drink wine — he drank this and said, 'This is good.' He doesn't like wine; I was shocked. This is amazing wine.

[12:56] Armando: So this one, the Alkunya — this is 2022. I think there are only the last three cases left. But there's a new vintage coming. If you like the older vintages, for sure… What we do is split it into two grape varieties: Bobal for the reds and Macabeo for the whites. So this is a Macabeo as well — one I actually brought up. This kind of amphora—

[13:27] Guest: Yes, it's a model.

[13:29] Armando: This is a model. We don't have a million like this. The original one is about two meters high and holds a thousand liters. So this is still small — but exactly the same. It's clay, handmade in Spain. Some people are still doing these kinds of things, keeping the tradition. This clay has been made in Spain for — I don't remember if it's four or five generations. And what Simon was trying to tell me is that you saw a Magen David, a Star of David, on them. We ordered clays from two different craftsmen, and they arrived for the first trial year so we could see which we liked more, because each one behaves differently. And suddenly we saw this Star of David on the originals, and we said, 'How does this guy know we use it? How does he know?' — because we're very discreet about it.

[14:50] Guest: In Spain, nobody expects… establishing those codes.

[14:52] Armando: In Spain… yeah. It was very easy, because the man selling it said, 'No, that's just the way I sign the clays when I finish — to show people this is mine. This is how my father signs the clay, and this is how my grandfather did.' You know, the Jewish heritage in Spain is so strong — family names, traditions, producers. People sign like this and don't know that, for them, it's just a star — not even a Star of David. Go back probably to the great-great-grandfather, who never told the grandchild, because they had to protect themselves somehow. But that's how it was. Before, I told you the Alenar is in stainless steel because we want just one direction — to the fruit. The Alkunya, the white, is going to age on the lees. The yeast, once it has done the fermentation and gone through its cycle, dies. And if you decide to leave the lees with the wine, you can add different flavors, and also a bit of volume. There's something called bâtonnage in French — they take a baton and stir, and the more you move the wine with the lees, the more… the winemaker chooses how he wants the wine. This one stays here for six months; we'll move it very little — about once a month — and the lees stay there. Why? Because in our region — think about it — we're in Valencia, a place that's really hot, very like Israel. You want complexity, but you always want lighter-bodied wines, wines that fit the region. It's not a coincidence that in our region we make lighter wines. Here in Israel, for whatever reason in history, very heavy wines have been made. There's no problem with heavy wines — I love them — but certain regions and certain moments call for different wines. So this is a drier, more gastronomic, aged Macabeo. Generally, Macabeo brings white-fruit and white-flower notes. Here it doesn't need to be purely that, because it's aged in tinaja, micro-oxygenated for six months, and already a couple of years in the bottle. But in essence you're getting some white peach, some stone… Macabeo always brings a little bitterness on the back — that's 100% the Macabeo. We'll have another Macabeo white, but because it's Brut — sparkling — it's very versatile. It can be for starting, when you want acidity but a little touch of — not sweetness exactly, but a touch — that's good to start, and it's also very nice for dessert. So if you have a mousse au chocolat or something lemony, a Brut can go very well. And if it were an Extra Brut, there'd be no mousse au chocolat…

[19:32] Simon: But no mousse au chocolat — there's another chocolate, you'll see. Okay, okay. Surprise!

[19:38] Guest: Surprise — the same hat as well.

[19:40] Armando: So this has evolved a little. First of all, we received it like this. Here there's a lid — it has a rubber seal and then a stainless-steel lid, so it closes 100%, no air coming in. The only air comes through the clay.

[20:02] Guest: Do you have to do topping up?

[20:05] Armando: Well, it's micro-oxygenated — it's breathing — so you do have to top it up. It does it like wood, but in clay it's a little more irregular. Sometimes when it's full of wine you'll see a mark, like a wet brown patch here or there, because it's handcrafted. It's not monotone, not all the same — a person has taken the clay and shaped it by hand, so some parts are a bit more porous, some less.

[20:43] Simon: In Georgia they use clay. Do they still bury the clay in the ground?

[20:47] Guest: They bury it, but they're much bigger — huge. And they're pointed at the bottom. They put the point in the ground, and the sediment settles into the point at the bottom.

[20:59] Armando: I don't know who brought it to Georgia, but the ones we have are the same. The Phoenicians brought it to my region. If you come to visit, you'll see — in my own town there are three or four houses that have, at the bottom, vessels of a thousand liters, even three thousand liters. Sometimes I think to myself: which came first, the egg or the chicken? Did you place the clay vessels and then build the house? Because they're huge. So this isn't romanticism — what we wanted was to go back a little to the origins, to how wine was made a few hundred, even a few thousand years ago, but in a more modern way.

[22:02] Guest: So do you experiment with other barrels?

[22:06] Armando: In the reds there's another experiment. But for this one, some people ferment in stainless steel and then move it — we don't do that.

[22:25] Guest: Yeah, no.

[22:28] Armando: I don't think so… some people do it, but it's not common in our area.

[22:37] Guest: Is it more common in amphora, or more common in steel?

[22:42] Armando: It's more common in inox. With tinajas, we were kind of the pioneers in my region — not that we were the absolute first. In my region, when you go into the towns, you'll see, underground, many places with clay vessels like this, but somehow people left it aside completely. They thought making wine this way wasn't classy, wasn't modern. Since 2016 we started making wines like this, and suddenly you see all the wineries doing it. I think it's amazing. So, this one — we don't call it amphora. You call it amphora, but we call it tinaja, with a J. Tinajas.

[23:41] Guest: Wine does give you… it's the natural product.

[23:45] Armando: Actually, in my region, if you say 'amphora,' people look at you and ask what you mean — for them it's tinaja. Because my region, which I really want you to visit, has the oldest archaeological winemaking sites in the whole Iberian Peninsula — Spain and Portugal. When you go there, you can see places where, 2,500 years ago, they put the grapes and crushed them with their feet, carved into the stone, and the wine ran into a special place. That's how they made wine at the time.

[24:32] Guest: Yeah. We have that right where I am. There's a really great natural park in my neighborhood, and if you go around it, there were different winemaking facilities all around there.

[24:47] Armando: So this is the brother — or sister — of the Alenar white and rosé. We want the same philosophy: freshness, fruitiness, a beautiful introduction of Bobal, the same as the rosé, but now fully red. Stainless steel, from old vines, good acidity. This is the type of red we sell the most. Even though they say in Israel you don't drink red wines in summer — and it's true that if you have a very heavy red, you avoid it so you don't get knocked out—

[25:33] Guest: You drink your Dom… of course, you'd be right.

[25:36] Armando: But you can have something lighter — not only in body but also in tannins. Here the tannins are quite restrained, acceptable. So the idea is a red that connects very well with Bobal — the fruity side, good acidity, fun, good for summer. Some people like to put reds in the fridge to chill. But not every red goes well chilled — like a Garnacha.

[26:19] Guest: Like a Garnacha — Garnacha is very light, you can chill it.

[26:22] Armando: Garnacha is very versatile. You know the animal that changes color? The chameleon? Garnacha is very chameleon-like. For example, a Tempranillo in Spain — you'll more or less recognize, 'Oh, this is Tempranillo, from Rioja or from Duero.' But take a Garnacha from Aragón, or Catalonia, or Valencia, or Madrid — Madrid is very fashionable now — and they're completely different from each other. The Garnachas I saw here are a bit heavier in color, no?

[27:11] Guest: It depends which one. For example, I had some from Pinto — I'd drink them chilled, they're super light, not heavy. But Vitkin's is a little more bold. Garnacha can vary — the couple I had were super light, but others, like Vitkin's, are a bit more bold, like you were saying. So it's not one and the same. I agree.

[27:33] Armando: Garnacha is widely used for rosé. And in areas like where Garnacha was born — it's a Spanish grape variety, born in Aragón, the birthplace of Garnacha — the soil is typically pizarra. You know pizarra — slate? When you go to the Pyrenees or the Alps in France and see the roofs made of that black slate, good for the snow… This soil is very typical of Aragón, where you can make a very light Garnacha that looks almost like a rosé, but is still intense. When you get it in your mouth, you get the intensity of the wine, yet it's very light. The same in Madrid — if you go west of Madrid, to a place called Sierra de Gredos, the mountains of Gredos, you can also have that super-light Garnacha.

[28:48] Simon: Does it give a taste of minerality?

[28:50] Armando: Yes, yes. When I talked about the rosé, I said more 'salinity.' I mentioned minerality too, but I said more salinity, because in my region, in the calcareous soils of the Mediterranean coast, you get more salinity. In regions with pizarra — very strong slate — you get more of a mineral touch.

[29:25] Guest: Garnacha comes from Aragón, in northeast Spain, close to France, right?

[29:31] Armando: It touches the Pyrenees, but it's west of Catalonia. When Catalonia ends, it's the next region.

[29:39] Guest: So is it close — that's why you have a lot of Grenache in Côtes du Rhône and other parts, because it's right there to the south?

[29:47] Armando: Yeah, it's across the Pyrenees.

[29:50] Guest: So that's why they both consider it a local grape. This — oh, this is not inox?

[29:57] Armando: This is not inox. But you feel something — this comes from old vines. There's no vanilla or toast or anything.

[30:11] Guest: So was it steel?

[30:14] Armando: It's only steel. You're going to taste… if you want, order what we drink — flint. The stone, flint? That's a matter of the pizarra. Pizarra is slate. Okay.

[30:29] Guest: All red Bobal?

[30:30] Armando: All Bobal. In some projects you can see the difference: 'I make a Cabernet Sauvignon, I make a Merlot,' whatever. We do all Bobal.

[30:42] Guest: This is exactly what I love in wine. Just keep sending me this one.

[30:49] Armando: This is my job. This is how I live. I'm not going to be politically correct — there's nothing politically correct.

[31:01] Guest: When someone orders some Bobal, you're in direct contact — nice. It's very unique. There are a lot of wineries from Spain, Italy and France in Israel, but usually it's through an importer or distributor. I never saw someone sell directly. You can just go to an Israeli website — I was so surprised.

[31:25] Armando: Because you only live once. I think it's nice; it's the minimum I could do.

[31:30] Guest: And you cut out the middle manager — it's more money for you at the end of the day. Distribution.

[31:37] Armando: It's true, but at the end of the day, because you're the owner, you spend more on marketing and so on. When you have your own company, big or small, you don't really know how much money you put in — you put your life there. It's like a family. If you really thought about how much you put into the company, sometimes it's not rational, because you have to invest and do this and that. So, this is also 100% Bobal — the same grape variety we've been drinking. Here there are a few years of difference — 2023 or 2024 — and on this one, 2020. So a few years of aging in the bottle already. Aging in the bottle is very important; it brings the wine somewhere else.

[32:47] Guest: But this 2020 is the one we have now?

[32:49] Armando: 2020 is the one you have now.

[32:50] Guest: This is the most recent vintage?

[32:52] Armando: No, no. I'm now bringing 2022 or 2023.

[33:00] Guest: Oh — this is the most recent vintage in Israel, but back home it was already produced and sold.

[33:04] Armando: Yes, yes. I brought this one because it's good for you to see all the vintages, so you see the direction of development. So this one has 12 months on American oak. In Spain you have French oak, American oak, all these oaks — Hungarian and so on — but generally American and French. In Spain it's very classic to use American oak everywhere, like in Rioja. No matter whether it's very high-end or lower-end, American oak is the standard.

[33:48] Guest: Like LV wines in Córdoba — they're using American oak too, right?

[33:53] Armando: Yeah. I'm sure they do French oak in Rioja now, but a few years ago it was only American. You know, in the French expression — what defines the French Republic — Liberté…

[34:24] Guest: Liberté, égalité, fraternité.

[34:25] Armando: Right — three words that define the French Republic. In wine, you also have three words: local, loyal, and constant — locally consistent and loyal. Those define terroir as the main thing. Twenty or thirty years ago in Burgundy, some people made new styles, and some succeeded. But forty years ago, if you made a wine that didn't follow these three things — a Burgundy that wasn't 100% Burgundy style — people would say your wine wasn't good. Not because it wasn't made well, but because it didn't follow these three things. If you want to be a Burgundy wine, it has to taste like Burgundy. Now things have changed in Burgundy and around the world — you have things like the Super Tuscans and all that. Same in Rioja: thirty years ago, if you brought French oak, they'd say, 'This isn't Rioja; you should go somewhere else.' So in Spain, American oak was very dominant in the style. Let me tell you how it works. At a certain moment in winemaking history they had to set standards. In Spain, about seventy years ago, the standards weren't the same as today. Crianza, Reserva, and Gran Reserva were used to classify wines — those who wanted to show better quality had to follow certain rules. But today those rules — for example Crianza, which you can make anywhere in Spain within the appellations, regardless of grape variety — mean only timing. They don't mean quality. So when you see Crianza, Reserva, or Gran Reserva today, it doesn't mean quality at all. Fifty years ago it did, because you had to age the wine in oak for a certain time and then in bottle. There was an effort. But today it doesn't equal quality; it's only the time. Each appellation rules what they want. In my appellation, Utiel-Requena, the timing for Crianza is a minimum of six months.

[38:05] Guest: Six months, not one year?

[38:07] Armando: Not one year — a minimum of six months, and twelve months… it's different in Rioja. There's also one for the whites and for the rosé. But you've probably never seen a Crianza rosé, no?

[38:20] Guest: No, I don't think so.

[38:21] Armando: Not really.

[38:22] Guest: Is there a purpose to aging rosé that long?

[38:24] Armando: You don't see many — some people do it. Simon, who makes a barrel-aged rosé? In Israel?

[38:34] Guest: Lahat, Agur. There are a few. Lahat is 10 months — it's a GSM, the bigger one. The rosé? Yeah, very complex. And Agur is six months, also very nice.

[38:45] Armando: So this one — again, 80% Bobal. And there's 20% Shiraz.

[38:53] Guest: But still at a higher level. So what's in the blend?

[38:56] Armando: So here it's 80/20. There was a moment — when you're working on a project that always uses the same grape, all Bobal — that we focused very much on the grape variety and the land where we grow it. And there was a moment when we wanted to widen the angle, to show the terroir, the bigger view of it. When you make a very terroir-driven wine, you can focus on one thing. Here we wanted to open it up a bit more and show — because our area is high-altitude, Mediterranean, continental, but also quite dry. Bobal didn't show that, so we brought in 20% Shiraz to bring those spices, those dry herbs, so that while drinking Bobal you can imagine what our high-altitude, dry terroir looks like. Shiraz can bring a lot of body — more than Bobal usually shows here — but what we did was flip it: bring the aromas and taste of Shiraz but not the body. We made it lighter to go along well with the Bobal.

[40:32] Guest: The lighter form would be the Shiraz.

[40:34] Armando: So the Shiraz is aging in clay?

[40:38] Guest: Ah, yeah.

[40:39] Armando: So we mix it with the Bobal. You asked me before — the Shiraz ages separately in the clean tinajas, and the Bobal ages in American oak. And then we do the blending.

[40:57] Guest: Okay, so after each one ages, then you blend?

[41:00] Armando: Yes, then we blend it.

[41:01] Guest: Each one ages separately? Each for 12 months?

[41:06] Armando: Each separately for 12 months, and then when the Shiraz is finished, we blend them together.

[41:12] Guest: So how long does it stay in the bottle before…?

[41:15] Guest: No — in the barrel.

[41:17] Armando: In the bottle it stays at least one year.

[41:20] Guest: At least one year.

[41:21] Armando: Yeah.

[41:21] Guest: So this is American oak?

[41:23] Armando: This is American oak.

[41:24] Guest: What processes are you using to keep the alcohol levels low? All the whites are low, the reds are low compared to Israeli — except for the Memorias, yeah.

[41:32] Armando: So that's 13%.

[41:34] Guest: This one will be 13, 14…

[41:39] Armando: You have 11.5. Usually the Alenar Tinto is 12, 12.5.

[41:45] Guest: So are you stopping fermentation early?

[41:48] Armando: No — Bobal takes a long time to ripen; it has a long cycle. We're very lucky with the continental climate and the altitude, which allow that. For example, here in Israel, already in July and August you have a heavy harvest. We do most of the reds at the end of September or October. If you come to my region then, during the day it's really hot, and during the night it's really cold. That gives us a thermal swing — during the day it keeps ripening, during the night you get that drop. If you go to lower places in Valencia — 300, 400 meters — you don't get that. It's like a chicken: when you put a light on the chicken, it never stops eating because it thinks it's daytime. Not exactly like that, but more or less, you get it. So this one is Finca Zerezal. Finca in Spain usually means an estate — kerem yachid, a single vineyard. This one is also 2020.

[43:49] Guest: Okay, 2020.

[43:52] Armando: 2020, 100% Bobal. In Europe — and in places like Australia — there are still some vines that survived the phylloxera plague. At that time phylloxera killed most of the vineyards in Europe. In some places in Spain — mainly the islands, or places like Utiel-Requena, which 115 years ago was kind of isolated; we had no train, so to get to Valencia you took a donkey — phylloxera doesn't fly; a human has to carry it to the place. So we were lucky that phylloxera only reached our region at the end of the epidemic, around 1903 or 1904, and it didn't hit really hard. So we have some parcels that are still alive — very old vines. And the soil sometimes helps: phylloxera is an insect that doesn't like sandy soils much; it doesn't feel comfortable there. Here we have a very calcareous, sandy soil, all combined, that makes it still possible.

[45:26] Guest: So these are pre-phylloxera soils?

[45:28] Armando: Pre-phylloxera vines — ungrafted. Very old vines. You have the same in the Canary Islands.

[45:41] Guest: The Canary Islands — is it true I read that they only just have phylloxera now?

[45:45] Armando: By law, phylloxera… By law it's not allowed now to plant if you don't graft the vines. By law they need to be grafted.

[46:04] Guest: So everyone has to do it?

[46:06] Armando: Yes — there are ways to control it, and the main way is to make grafting compulsory for everyone.

[46:13] Guest: What about the existing vines? Do you have to rip them up?

[46:15] Armando: The existing ones, no — they live until they die. But you can't plant new ones unless you graft. I think… you tell me: do you think 115-year-old ungrafted vines versus grafted, you'll see the difference? I'm not sure everyone can tell the difference in quality.

[46:42] Guest: So why is this one French?

[46:49] Simon: …than the Memorias, sorry.

[46:50] Armando: No, this one is French because — even before it's been aged in barrels, you can already see the difference. The main difference here is the soil. Both are Bobal. One is from more calcareous soils — this one is purely calcareous, which is why it's a single vineyard we wanted to show — and the other has a lot more clay content.

[47:15] Guest: So wait — this is single vineyard, and the rest are not single vineyards?

[47:18] Armando: It's the only one. Here we want to show something specific. Obviously it's a flagship wine for us, but we want to show something specific about this unique parcel.

[47:31] Guest: Is this considered the flagship, or the next one — the Yunikko?

[47:34] Armando: Finca Zerezal and Yunikko are, I'd say, the same level. But Yunikko is a crazy wine — we'll get to that.

[47:43] Guest: Take it — I love this wine. It's so elegant and beautiful, just amazing. Anyone can enjoy this.

[47:53] Armando: Yeah, this is a Reserva — we talked before about timing. So it's a Reserva type: a minimum of 12 months, and this one has had 12 months plus at least two years in the bottle before release. So it takes a while until they reach the two years in bottle before release.

[48:19] Guest: The Memorias was what level?

[48:23] Armando: The only two wines that have this are the Reserva and the Black Label. But it's something we're taking slowly. We don't want to be categorized that way — we want to be categorized as wines of an author. We decide what we want to do, and that's enough.

[48:43] Guest: You're not interested in classification.

[48:45] Armando: No. Finca Zerezal — you have to take it… I know it keeps getting more complicated. You know what Cerezal is? Cerezal is a cherry orchard, a cherry plantation.

[49:06] Guest: Orchard? Or — cherry, yeah, like a cherry plantation.

[49:15] Armando: So, cherry. We're in an area that's continental, high-altitude — like in the Golan, the Yarden. You have cherry trees there, and we also have cherry trees, because this climate allows it. We're at about 900 meters. That's why I thought of it. When you start an adventure, you don't know where you're going, and then every morning…

[49:42] Guest: I thought, you know, it makes sense.

[49:46] Armando: Yes — you go, and then you write, and then you look back and say, 'Wow, what an amazing story.' If you notice, the only two wines aged in oak barrels are the Finca and the Memorias. All the rest are either in tinaja or in inox. So my mother was born in Aix-en-Provence, in the heart of Provence in France. She was born there to Tunisian parents — my grandfathers were Tunisian. My grandfather was an expert in French law when he lived in Tunisia. Because of the French influence, when the war was ending they decided to go to France. Marseille was the closest place. So they arrived in Aix-en-Provence, grew up there, and my grandfather worked in law all his life, with great success. And slowly, Aix-en-Provence became a place for artists in France — artists from Paris would go back there in summer, to Provence. Cézanne painted the Sainte-Victoire; Picasso had a house, a place, close by. So there was a big influence of writers, poets and painters — a golden era. My grandfather got really inspired by art and life, and got to meet one of the painters there. Slowly he acted as a patron. Most artists are a little crazy in a certain way, so this one had difficulties in life, and slowly my grandfather bought all his paintings. The painter is called Gilbert Rigaud; he was born in Aix-en-Provence at that time. What we did with all the labels is take the simplest figures from the paintings — because it's part of my mother's family, a family story. So we blended my father's Bobal from Spain with my mother's side. We don't put it everywhere; if you go to the website you'll almost not find it. But it's a way to give recognition to my mother's touch — which, by the way, influences the wines we make in Spain. For example, my wines, compared with the rest of my region, are not conventional. We don't make wine the way others in my region do. Remember the three words about terroir — constant, loyal, local? We break that a little, because we wanted a more refreshing interpretation of Mediterranean wines, less heavy. So this one is called Yunikko — unique, for many reasons. You see there are so many Y's and K's in Spain… Do you speak Yiddish?

[53:39] Guest: Uh, no. I understand a little Yiddish.

[53:42] Armando: I understand a little. So in Spain we have the Ladino language, and when people write Ladino now, they use a lot of K's and Y's. For example, casa in Spanish — home — is C-A-S-A. But in Ladino it's K-A-S-A, with a K. So, for example, Alkunya — if I get the bottle of the white, the orange one — this is a proper word in Ladino. Today it's written 'Alcuña,' with a C and an Ñ, not with Y and K. Alkunya means a noble family name. We gave 'Alkunya' to that wine because it was a bit more gastronomic, a bigger wine. And this is what we use for Yunikko. Yunikko is 100% Bobal, again from a pre-phylloxera vineyard of three parcels. It's fermented and aged — about 14 months, more or less depending on the year. So here again you have a red Bobal with a beautiful structure.

[55:10] Simon: I'm just absorbing.

[55:11] Guest: It's funny, because the name Alkunya almost brings forth the idea of the Muslim, the Arabic — Al-Kunya.

[55:20] Armando: Exactly, 100%, because at that time Ladino and Arabic were very mixed languages. If you go to Google, you'll find it was also used in Arabic then, but it was a Ladino word used for a family name.

[55:41] Guest: Did you mention what Magus Duopole means?

[55:44] Armando: Magus Duopole — Duo is the magic of two grape varieties that make something together. Duopole, like… not monopole, duopole.

[55:56] Guest: In which language is that — Latin, French?

[55:58] Armando: Magus is Latin, and Duopole, yeah.

[56:01] Guest: So it's funny — your name and your wine are going to be really varied.

[56:06] Armando: You know, next time you come to my family, you go to Valencia, and we open five bottles of wine and eat, and we talk about everything — many funny things come out in conversation.

[56:19] Guest: I'm saying — maybe the next one you have Spanish and Arabic, then French, maybe Hebrew names coming up next.

[56:25] Armando: Who knows? You have to come.

[56:30] Guest: Oh, is that the wine?

[56:31] Armando: So there's a way of tasting the sparkling. First, you let the wine relax. When it's relaxed, you taste it and see the bubbles. Once you've tasted how the bubbles are while the wine is relaxed, then you can shake the wine and let the aromas come out, and taste it again. But first we let the wine relax — take some in the mouth to see the quality of the bubbles — and the next step is the aromas, and so on.

[57:11] Guest: So this is from Macabeo?

[57:13] Armando: This is from Macabeo. This is 2022. So we're talking about a Reserva — a Reserva in Spain is a minimum of 15 months. Here we have 24 months. Traditional method.

[57:35] Guest: Yeah, okay.

[57:40] Guest: This is Reserva. It's cheap, it's basic—

[57:46] Guest: Very much the opposite of basic. Do you plan to make a Gran Reserva?

[57:51] Armando: The Gran Reserva is coming.

[57:53] Guest: I heard it's a lot of time in the bottle.

[57:55] Armando: Yeah, so we're holding it a bit — it should come now, but we're holding it until next year. We've been tasting it, and it has bigger potential than we thought, so we're holding it. It's already bottled and aging — traditional method. So it's aging with the lees inside, not being touched. While it ages, the bottle lies flat and isn't touched for the whole aging time.

[58:25] Guest: So is this 15 months or 24 months? I don't know.

[58:29] Armando: Between 24 and 30 months.

[58:31] Guest: And the Gran Reserva will be? That's a lot of bottles.

[58:33] Armando: Yeah — almost five years.

[58:34] Guest: Whoa.

[58:39] Armando: You want more lees — more lees for sure. But it's going to be like a Brut, not chilled. It's not relaxing.

[58:53] Guest: It's not relaxing.

[58:54] Armando: Because if you keep looking at it, it gets nervous. Stop looking at it.

[59:04] Guest: I'm not usually a Champagne guy, but I can appreciate quality, and this has super-fine bubbles. So refreshing. It covers your whole tongue, the whole palate. It's lovely.

[59:16] Guest: Yeah, it trumps…

[59:19] Guest: Yes — not Chardonnay.

[59:22] Armando: So you find the brioche — it didn't age at all in wood, but you find the brioche touch. That's the Macabeo in steel.

[59:33] Guest: Only steel. What's the word you keep using for the steel?

[59:37] Armando: Inox. How do you say inox? Stainless steel. Ah — in Spanish it means stainless steel.

[59:52] Guest: Oh, okay. It's fine, I understood. I just wanted to know the source of the word.

[59:57] Armando: Inox — inoxidable, that doesn't oxidize.

[01:00:02] Guest: Oh yeah — inox, doesn't oxidize, makes sense.

[01:00:09] Guest: Wow, yeah.

[01:00:10] Guest: Could you grab me a couple of glasses of water?

[01:00:11] Guest: So once again — let it relax to the extreme. It relaxed, you drink it.

[01:00:16] Armando: Yeah — because if you shake it, at the beginning the bubbles shake and it gets more oxidized. What we usually do is let it calm, then drink it, so you have the right bubbles in the mouth — not crazy bubbles — and you understand what type of bubbles you have. We want fine, persistent, well-integrated bubbles, very elegant. And now, if you want, try to shake it, find the aromas, and you'll see — whatever you want, to have the aromas intensified. This is 100% Macabeo — mostly 100% Macabeo, but it can also have a little bit of Xarel·lo.

[01:01:28] Simon: This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they're released. If you're new to the Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.

The Kosher Terroir · Season 4, Episode 30 · Viña Memorias, D.O.P. Utiel-Requena