The Kosher Terroir: Season 4, Episode 24

Location: KFWE Tel Aviv, Israel

Host: Simon Jacob

[00:00] Simon Jacob: Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode, from Jerusalem. Before we get started, no matter where you are, please take a moment to pray for the safe return home of all our soldiers. If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're relaxing at home, please open a delicious bottle of kosher wine and pour a glass. Sit back and relax.

[00:32] Simon Jacob: Is there a myth about Israeli wines or kosher wines that you would love to kill?

[00:37] Motti Herzog: Absolutely. The biggest myth is kosher wine is not as good as regular wine. In fact, there's no correlation between the two. Kosher wine, in fact, if they're good wines, are better than non-kosher wines. It all depends on—it's not a matter of being kosher or not, that does nothing to the taste. It depends on where the grapes are coming from, it depends on the vintner, how he's making the wine, the process. It's just as good or better.

[01:05] Simon Jacob: What are you serving here that will blow that myth away?

[01:10] Motti Herzog: I'm generally a big red, oaky type of wine [guy], but I'm going to actually recommend a white. For me, my partner Jeff Morgan would be proud of you. I'm going to serve you the Chardonnay Lavant.

[01:25] Simon Jacob: And this is a white that's treated like a red?

[01:29] Simon Jacob: [Tasting] Amazing... It is, it's so full and very interesting thing about this is the vineyard for this is in Sonoma at a mountain called Mount Scopus.

[01:45] Simon Jacob: Wow, awesome. Rich, it's very rich. It absolutely surrounds my mouth. So this is the Lavant, which is a Chardonnay, the '23. Right. Thank you, Jeff. L'chaim.

[02:00] Simon Jacob: The question I have is, is there a myth about Israeli or kosher wines that you would love to just absolutely kill?

[02:10] Sam Soraka: Well, obviously... the old stereotype that we're all still fighting, which is the sweet wine, the Manischewitz wine, the syrupy, the kosher traditional wine. That is obviously the first thing that we have to overcome. Then comes the myth, or the argument, or the debate, let's say, of mevushal and what mevushal does. I think what we have seen in studies that we have done at UC Davis to speak about mevushal... rather than if it's boiling or not boiling—which boiling you're speaking about hundreds of years ago—but today the real conversation of mevushal I think would be fair if our debate of mevushal would be aging it forward or not.

[02:54] Sam Soraka: Meaning, if you would tell me, "Yeah, this wine is mevushal and therefore it tastes like the wine you're drinking aged for five years or six years or ten years," I think that would be a great conversation to be had about mevushal or non-mevushal, rather than about that mevushal—"Oh, if it's once mevushal it can't be a good wine." I think it either doesn't change, or we could make the argument that it softens it up, meaning it pushes ahead the aging process faster. It makes it more approachable.

[03:22] Simon Jacob: Advanced... so it advances it by five years.

[03:26] Sam Soraka: Exactly. So that's the fight, that's the argument that they had with Michel Rolland, that all of his concepts would take a wine too far and they would never last. But my experience with your wines has been unbelievable.

[03:43] Sam Soraka: Exactly, and I can tell you that I just opened a bottle—we had dinner last week Thursday, my Uncle David, Motti, my cousin the winemaker, and we sat together—we opened a bottle of '98 Chalk Hill. So that wine is a mevushal wine. The wine was immaculate. The wine did not show any hint of anything. It was young, it was fresh, the color, the flavor, the mouth profile. It was fantastic. So there you have a wine that is what, 26 years old? That was perfect. And it was mevushal.

[04:22] Sam Soraka: I think we're past the kosher/non-kosher... I think the real conversation would be mevushal in terms of what mevushal does... making it more approachable at a young age.

[04:40] Simon Jacob: Motti, it's a pleasure. I have one other question quickly. What are you pouring that is an example of that?

[04:48] Sam Soraka: I think if you taste the '21 Lake County, which is already five years old, but that wine even though it's mevushal is still not ready to drink because it's such a big wine... it has the heat of Napa, then it has another level of tannin and spice. And that wine—I'll call it for nothing else a monster—and even mevushal, that wine is still not approachable now. We just released the '23 Lake County non-mevushal. So that is actually a wine that you could taste side-by-side, the '23 mevushal and non-mevushal, and see that.

[05:28] Sam Soraka: This is the '21 still, Lake County, but I think you'll see that this is still a baby.

[05:43] Simon Jacob: Thank you. That was Motti Herzog.

[05:48] Nathan Herzog: You know what the Generations [label] stands for? The number of Herzogs that are in the winery. So it was six, then it became seven, then it was eight once they had an eighth member come into the family. The first generation was in Europe.

[06:14] Simon Jacob: Nathan, how are you? I'm great. I was just talking to Jay. Can I ask you a question for my podcast?

[06:21] Nathan Herzog: Sure.

[06:22] Simon Jacob: Is there one myth about kosher or Israeli wine that you would love to absolutely kill?

[06:28] Nathan Herzog: Yes. Kosher today is as good as any non-kosher wine. Unfortunately, the myth by a lot of unaffiliated Jewish people, or people who grew up on Manischewitz or Kedem sweet wine, they still think kosher means sweet. They don't realize you have an amazing array of kosher wines from California, from Israel, from France, from Italy, that are great wines that happen to be kosher.

[07:05] Simon Jacob: Ariel Beir from Ella Valley. Is there a myth about kosher wines or Israeli kosher wines that you would love to get rid of?

[07:15] Ariel Beir: There's a few actually. The first of all is the price. People think that the kosher and the hashgacha (supervision) is very expensive, and it's not. It's a very minimum cost and we don't feel it actually in the production. You can see it in the price difference between kosher and non-kosher Israeli wines. The second one is that the Rabbi is always there and you cannot do anything... it's also a myth because the second the hashgacha understands who's the winemaker and who's the owner of the winery, they're actually very trustful.

[07:50] Simon Jacob: Is there a wine you are serving here that will break that myth about kosher wines being very expensive?

[07:58] Ariel Beir: Yeah, the Sauvignon Blanc 2024 and 2025. I think they are our best white wines in the winery and they are costing 75 to 85 shekels on the shelf. Not too expensive. We have the La Valley Series, that's our entry level, and they are costing 60 to 65 shekels on the shelf. Amazing wines.

[08:26] Simon Jacob: I've got a question for you. What myth about kosher or Israeli wines would you love to absolutely kill?

[08:35] Guest: If you open a bottle, you don't have to finish it the same day. Not just you don't have to finish it the same day, you shouldn't finish it the same day. Because the following day, and even the next day, and the day after, it will just get better and better. The better the wine—I couldn't agree with you more, especially for Shiloh wines. Amichai, you're amazing. I highly recommend to open your Shabbos wines Thursday night.

[09:05] Simon Jacob: So you're a supporter of Thursday night cholent?

[09:08] Guest: No, because I believe the cholent angel comes only on Shabbos. But you should open your wine on Thursday night.

[09:20] Guest: If you want to be surprised, I don't know if you got a chance to taste the Malbec. We made it in 2023 for the first time. Sold like [crazy] in weeks, completely sold out. Finally, we came out now with the 2024 and it's a big hit.

[09:47] Simon Jacob: Shalom Bracha, Menachem! We're waiting over here for you to try the whites.

[09:52] Menachem Israelievitch: Of course. How are you?

[09:55] Simon Jacob: Which white should we be tasting?

[09:57] Menachem Israelievitch: You have to taste this wine. It's entry level, Chateau de d'Arsac, Sauvignon Blanc 100%. And now we have two very nice whites. The best wine is this one: Chateau d'Arsac. It's a blend of Sauvignon Blanc and Sauvignon Gris. It's fermented in barrel and then also aged in barrel for 10 months. It's Bordeaux, but it's something very new now that started only a few months ago—the Médoc White. It's the first time because until now in Bordeaux you had only Pessac-Léognan that had white.

[10:48] Simon Jacob: Is there a myth about kosher wine that you would love to get rid of?

[10:53] Menachem Israelievitch: Today, to be honest, I think that today the kosher wine is just a stamp. Because the wine—I think today we have to be really focused on the appellation, on the history of each winery. It's became the time now that all the consumers have to understand... the region, the story of each winery, and not to be focused on the kosher.

[11:27] Menachem Israelievitch: In few months we will launch the second label of one of the greatest chateaus that was always my dream... Chateau Cos d'Estournel. In 2024 we produced the second label, which is Pagodes de Cos. And in '25 we made the first wine, Chateau Cos d'Estournel. So this for me is a big achievement.

[12:12] Simon Jacob: How are you, Sam? I have a question for you. Is there a myth about Israeli wine or kosher wine that you would love to dispel?

[12:22] Sam Soraka: First of all, there's nothing really different about the process of making kosher or non-kosher wine, except that for kosher, only Sabbath-observant Jews are making it. I will say this: I am not a big fan of mevushal. There's nothing wrong with it, but in my opinion, a wine should not have its temperature raised and lowered... as a matter of fact, it might even be bad for the wine. The myth might be true that it somehow slows the aging process.

[13:06] Simon Jacob: Of the wines you've brought here, Sam, which really shows off Psagot?

[13:12] Sam Soraka: I think the Peak, a Rhône blend of Petite Sirah and Syrah, is showing fantastic tonight. The 2023 is really, really beautiful. It's hard to choose my favorite, but we've really put a lot of love into everything we do.

[13:34] Simon Jacob: What about whites?

[13:36] Sam Soraka: The White Peak is fantastic. It's 100% Chardonnay. The 2024 is 40% Viognier, 60% Chardonnay, and I believe it's even better.

[13:58] Simon Jacob: Shalom Bracha. How are you? These are my favorite Rieslings.

[14:05] Guest: I come from Alsace, from Strasbourg. I'm a great lover of the Alsace wine, so that's the reason I'm here to show the treasure of our region in France. We are very proud of it.

[14:26] Simon Jacob: So you work for the yekke (referring to Koenig) as well?

[14:28] Guest: We represent Koenig in Alsace. Since we are kids, we are drinking the Koenig. My father is the one who is in charge of the kashrus of the Koenig.

[14:50] Simon Jacob: David, how are you? Is there a myth about Israeli wine or about kosher wine that you would love to get rid of?

[15:02] David Cohen: Today, to be honest, I think the kosher wine is just a stamp. Some people say that mevushal is affecting the quality of the wine. Today to make wine mevushal, it doesn't do anything. I don't see any difference between kosher wine and non-kosher wine in the quality at all.

[15:25] Simon Jacob: What about Israeli wine?

[15:27] David Cohen: Israeli wines are amazing. The quality of Israeli wine is getting much, much better in the making. Who's your favorite winemaker in Israel? Gvaot. Professor Shibi is amazing. Gvaot, Har Odem, Agur, Tzora, and Drimia. I would add above some of them, Yaacov Oryah. He's just incredible.

[16:15] Simon Jacob: Shalom Bracha! We haven't seen any new things? I know! Is there a myth about kosher or Israeli wine that you would love to get rid of?

[16:29] Guest: You don't need a Rabbi to bless the wines. I'm not blessing anything. I'm just a Jewish guy making the wine with my hands. That's it. And kosher wines are all sweet—also obviously hopefully a dying myth. They are not as good as regular wine—of course not, they are much better!

[17:01] Simon Jacob: When's the best time to come and visit you?

[17:04] Guest: In the month of June. The month of June is not so hot yet, there's not so many tourists. June is great.

[17:28] Simon Jacob: Mr. Cohen! How are you? Is there a myth about kosher wine that you would love to kill?

[17:38] David Cohen: My parents started 25 years ago to make wine because the myth was kosher wine can't be good. Then it was carried on to mevushal wines can't be good. But now, what I'm hearing a lot—my sister is the winemaker—a lot of people ask, "Can women be in a winery? It's made kosher wine." And we find that more than you would imagine. There's other great women winemakers in the kosher wine world. Every time more and more. I think women have a higher sense of smell or better sense of taste.

[18:30] David Cohen: My sister's the winemaker... we decided to make the Siblings [label]. First year we made it, we just got 92 by Decanter. It's also our highest mevushal wine. It's a wine you can just enjoy a conversation.

[19:10] Simon Jacob: So what's the cost on that?

[19:12] David Cohen: Siblings is like 85–90 [shekels] on the shelf.

[19:33] Simon Jacob: This is Simon Jacob again, your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you are new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.