S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Welcome back to The Kosher Terroir. Today we're stepping into a rare conversation about ambition, place and practice. On one side, Alessandro Cellai, the Tuscan winemaker whose fingerprints are on benchmark reds from the coast to Chianti. On the other, Dr Ralph Madeb, a physician and longtime industry partner, who spent the last 10 years building the bridge between Alessandro's cellars and kosher production at a very high standard. How do you take a wine style defined by precision and translated through the demands of kashrut without losing soul, texture or time in barrel? What compromises are myth and what innovations actually move the needle? Today we will map the journey vineyards and vintages, logistics and law, and the quiet moments where trust turns into a truly kosher bottling worthy of the label and the land a truly kosher bottling worthy of the label and the land.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:25

If you're driving in your car, please pay attention to the road ahead. If you're relaxing at home or in your Tesla on full self-driving, please pour a glass of wonderful kosher wine. Sit back, relax and let's pour this story. Alessandro, welcome to The Kosher Terroir. That's the podcast we're on. I just wanted to mention to you in researching your background, it was amazing. It's an amazing background. There's so many things that you've done not only wineries, but wines that you've made and you know there's a theme that goes through it. You're an extremely creative person, but you're also an extremely visual person, so a lot of the things that you've noted are, all you know, have these strong visual cues, and it's very cool, very, very interesting, very exciting.

Alessandro Cellai: 2:30

Thank you so much for your introduction and presentation on yourself, and so I spent all of my career until now, for the quality. I had great privilege to have one of the probably the best teacher, the best mentor in the world, Giacomo Tacchi. Yeah, that, he was the inventor of the most important Italian white wines and through him I became strictly connected with his philosophy. And his philosophy is, of course, starting from the vineyard, bringing the passion from the vineyard into the glass of wine, and the philosophy of winemaking is of Giacomo Tachis was founded on three different columns extremely important. The first column was that in all great wines we must recognize terroir. The second column was in top wines we must recognize great. And the third one, that is, we must recognize the DNA of the winemaker. So that was the vision I took from my maestro, from my teacher, from my mentor, Giacomo Tachis.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:04

He was the one who basically created Super Tuscan, wasn't he?

Alessandro Cellai: 4:09

Correct, correct, he was the inventor of Sassicaia, the inventor of Tignanello, he was the key of success, of fortune, of Antinori family. But not only. He was the creator of the new Italian wine renaissance at the end of the 70s, when in many regions of Italy the wines were considered just in bulk. And now those regions are making a big fortune, like Sicily, like Sardinia, like Quintino Arduari, thanks to him, because with his genius, with his mind, he created the best wines in that region. Just to consider what was Sicily and what was Sardinia before Giacomo Tacchi Now two regions to make wine and 95% in bulk and to export or to bring in other regions to make more alcohol content and different things. Now Sicily and S and Slovenia are two of the most important wire regions in Italy.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:29

Very interesting.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 5:30

Alessandro, you know it's funny. I know you for like 10 years already. I never heard you speak about your mentor like that. I don't even know the story. How did you even get to hook up?

Alessandro Cellai: 5:41

with him. The relation with Giacomo Tacchis was by a fortunate moment in my life during the university. One day Giacomo Tacchis came to the university to make a seminar and I immediately included myself in the participants of this seminar. And at the end of the seminar, giacomo Tacchi was very kind to all of the participants and said I'm here for half an hour extra time, so if you have some questions or arguments that you want to make more deeper, so I'm here to help you and nobody is asking something. And I had a list of a huge number of questions. And then I started to make questions to him and after a few minutes he said okay, so listen, you have so many questions, come to my house, come to my house next Wednesday and I'll explain to you.

Alessandro Cellai: 6:54

Tasting the wines, you can understand much better. And I felt at that time like a passionate man of Formula One, for example, that I was meeting with Enzo Ferrari, enzo Ferrari inviting that person to make a tour in Fiorano and maybe to have a trip with a Ferrari racing car. So I felt the same level of the same, the same level of happiness, the same level of enthusiasm and since that moment, the the relation with Giacomo Tacchi was a very friendly relationship, so we became true friends. He considered me as his son and he spent many of his times to teach me, to bring me in this beautiful world and to help me to understand his vision. I spent many, many days with him, many visits in the vineyards, visits in the cellar, tasting a lot, a lot, a lot of wines with him, and that was, for me, one of the most important parts of my career.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 8:15

My career. He talks about him like we talk about our rabbis.

S. Simon Jacob: 8:20

Yeah, no, but he was. He was so instrumental in Italian wine. It's just crazy, it's unbelievable.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 8:28

Was he a businessman too, or he was just like a person in the vineyard, enology and things of that way.

Alessandro Cellai: 8:36

All of them. He was a great winemaker, a great vineyard manager, a great philosopher. He was great at everything. So one hour with him was much more than I have a deep respect for all of my professors during my student career, but one hour with him, the value of one hour with him, was much more than five years with anybody else.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:08

He passed away in 2016.

Alessandro Cellai: 9:10

Yes, correct.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:11

It wasn't so long ago.

Alessandro Cellai: 9:13

Correct, but he was an older gentleman.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 9:17

right, he was an older gentleman 77, not really old.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:25

He was born in 33.

Alessandro Cellai: 9:35

He was born in 33. So, yeah, now that is uh, that that was one of the two big fortunes of of my career.

Alessandro Cellai: 9:40

The first fortune was to have my, my uncle, as a catholic priest you, you know, ralph that my uncle was a Catholic priest yeah, yeah, and I spent all of my younger age with him and he had a little vineyard around the church to make the wine for the community. And since I was four or five years old, he brought me into the vineyard teaching me how to make wine. So I probably took from myself, from inside of myself, the germ of wine that I was born with that, because no other person in my family was involved in the wine industry.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:23

But you know that wine industry connection is Wait for a second no, the wine industry connection is really really good, but Giacomo instilled in you a creative bent that most people don't have Most people aren't that creative and between, even in business, all the different businesses that you've created, I mean, this is like the resume of a guy who's 100 years old and you're still strong and healthy and well, thank God, and amazing. So I want to start at the beginning, though. We jumped a whole level. You started in Siena and your early years were in Roccadel Machia.

Alessandro Cellai: 11:20

I did two levels of graduation. The first level of graduation was to become a winemaker in Siena, in the agricultural school, and the second level of graduation, when I met Giacomo Tacchis, was the chemistry university in Pisa. Okay, and then my first experience before to be graduated in chemistry was in Rocca delle Macchie. That is a big company, big winery, in Castellina Chianti, where I had the first three years of my career and after that experience I moved to Castellari.

S. Simon Jacob: 12:08

Okay, so Castellari is, or DCC as people call it really is an incredible. That was in 1996. Yes, you started there. So what did you start as? As a winemaker?

Alessandro Cellai: 12:28

Yeah, yeah, I met at that time in 1995 Mr Panerai. Okay, and Mr Panerai is the owner of Castellare and that year he owned only Castellari and he was looking for a person to follow not only the winemaker section but also the management section. And I was extremely clear with him and I say I'm very excited to think about this venture with you. But I'm very honest, I can feel very confident about technical aspects because, also, I have the best guide in the world. But in terms of management, especially in terms of sales, commercial things, we know experience of that. And Mr Panerai answered to me with an answer that I still have in my mind and he said one great winemaker and became, for sure, a great salesman, a great salesman and never became a great winemaker, perfect, and that's great. With this, with this sentence, I, I started with a lot of energy, with a lot of emotion and and we grow immediately a lot with Castellari. A few years after, we started the project of Rocca di Frassinello with the joint venture between Castellari and Chateau Lafitte-Rochelle, and then we started, also in Sicily, the Feu de Del Pichotto, and I took the position of general manager, winemaker, salesperson and so on, and the CEO of the company After almost 30 years, I decided to take another challenge.

Alessandro Cellai: 14:42

I spoke very clearly with Mr Panerai and said this is the right moment to take another challenge and I took the project of Valle Piccola in 2019. That's a different family, right? Yeah, this is a different family. They were asking for me for many, many, many years, so at the end, they asked me to become a general manager, to become like a guide of this new, very, very important project. You visit, ralph, and you know how important is this project this 100 hectares of vineyard, the second largest investment in the wine industry, with 7,000 square meters cellar, two hotels, four restaurants and so on. And I took this challenge without to lose Castellari, because I'm still making the wine for Castellari and I preserved my position of vice president of Castellari, but at the same time, I took the position of general manager for Valle Piccio.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 16:00

You're still the winemaker on both ends.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:02

Absolutely, absolutely, that's what's amazing, Honestly Ralph, that's like crazy.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 16:09

Simon. He's very humble. I know, when I walk around Chianti, I feel like the Pope is walking through Chianti. Everybody stops me and he's the king winemaker of Tuscany. There's no doubt about it. He's the king one maker of Tuscany.

Alessandro Cellai: 16:24

There's no doubt about it. Well now, just three days ago, I got an interview from the most important Italian newspaper. It's Corriere della Sera. Maybe you are familiar with this, yeah, and this journalist called me to make me an interview, to dedicate for me a full page it should be next week about my career.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:52

It's really incredible. It's really incredible. I have some questions with regard to the specific wines that you produced. You've been jumping faster, jumping faster, but in castellari, is there a specific wine that you feel that you touched and made an amazing wine? Is there a particular one that is?

Alessandro Cellai: 17:15

it isodid de san nicola?

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 17:16

simon, you know it's funny, you ask that question. I met alessandro through our good friend who you've interviewed in your podcast, nunzio costaldo. You know, nunzio, yes, we ate dinner with him and he introduced me to Alessandro. And you know we will tell you two funny stories. So when Nunjo introduced me, I was coming off my French kick, lissandra. I know, you know, when I started this business, you know we don't make money in this business. We're doing it for pleasure, making wine. Hopefully, maybe in 10 years it'll become something big. But we were coming off the French and the French. It's almost impossible to deal with them. Simon, you know it's like. You know everything is like. You know you have to have this special. You know demeanor and decorum and this, and that you sit with Alessandro Celay. The whole town thinks he's the Pope and he's hugging us and kissing us and talking to us like a regular guy. But I'll tell you one of the most impressive stories.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 18:18

We made this wine because of Isodi. We made kosher wine because all I hear from my Italian sommelier is oh, you want to taste a good Chianti? I love Chianti myself. And he says this Isodi is something, this is something. Nobody knows him. So I called him and said what the hell is Isodi? Everybody's talking about it Because Esodi is my best friend, my best friend, alessandro Cilaghi.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 18:40

When he came in, that was the wine that actually put me in the heart of Italy. That's the first wine we made. That was. It took many years to produce. Right, because it's not. It's an IGT, believe it or not, because it doesn't use the classic designations.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 18:57

But it is probably the pinnacle of why we make kosher wines and I want to tell you a story. I want to tell you the story because it is going to attest to who Alessandro Cerai is. Simon, whenever I leave a French winemaker or a French thing, I have to kiss their feet for giving me the honor, the pleasure to make kosher wine. You can't tell you what I do. When we had our first drop of kosher wine, first drop that was pressed, put in, I wasn't even there, I was here in America. Alessandro, I'll never forget this, to the day I die. It's like when you do a surgery and you see the tumor. You know you have razor sharp eyes on how you're going to get around it. This comment penetrated right through my heart and it was Ralph. He called me doctor at the time says doctor, I want to thank you for giving me the privilege of making kosher wine. Yes, when I say it, I want to cry. You understand sure why. Yes, when I said I want to cry, you understand he it was. It was a bond that formed that. Only people who appreciate wine and appreciate winemaking can understand one another. That's who alessandro chelae is, not kicking you out and saying okay, just pay me the check, I'll see you later. It was a. It was a vision, it was, and that attests who alessandro chelae is.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 20:14

The second story that will tell you is when we were in the middle of COVID, alessandro Celaya in Florence got sick. He got very sick and I was so scared for him now because at that point he became like a brother. I had all my medicines here, the monoclonal, ready. I was ready to get it shipped and I told him do me a favor, don't listen to anybody. Go there and get the monoclonal antibody Please. If not, I'm shipping it, fedex. I had it ready to go, package ready to go. He went. He got better. Two years later I come. I brought him 10 doses of monoclonal. So we're sitting in one of the big conferences. When he saw me, he gives me a hug and everything. So the people around him ask him why are you so worried about it? I told him this guy houses more kosher wine than the entire France. I got to make sure he stays alive.

Alessandro Cellai: 21:06

No, this is. You anticipate me, dear friend, because that for me was one of the most dark moments in my life. He was sick.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 21:17

He was very sick. He was in the hospital for two weeks.

Alessandro Cellai: 21:19

I was very, very sick and the doctors, when I entered in the hospital, I asked so, doctor, what do you think I can think to come outside and to survive? And they said we don't know, because at that moment many, many people were dying. And so, just two days before to be recovered in the hospital, ralph recommended me to do monoclonal. I did, and when I was outside of the hospital, just the day before we had the admission to the hospital, the major doctor of the hospital said you can be 100 thanks to monoclonal, because if you survived, 99.9% is thanks to the monoclonal, because your COVID level, your pneumonia, was very serious. Your COVID level was, your pneumonia was very serious, your COVID level was very, very, very high. And so that's the reason why I can never forget what Ralf did for me, and I always say to everybody nobody can touch my best doctor Ralf, nobody can touch my best Dr Ralph, nobody can touch. Because we became, as he said, very, very big friends and I think we remain friends for the entire life.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 22:48

But the eSody, by the way. But to get to the original point, the eSody was what actually pushed me into this market.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:56

So the Esodi? That's another situation. The name Esodi is like.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 23:03

Here's the wine. By the way, this is the wine you see. Can you see it there?

S. Simon Jacob: 23:06

Yeah, the one with the beautiful bird, and this is the vintage.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 23:11

This is the vintage. The 19 was our inaugurated vintage.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:15

Very cool. I've shared that with you, ralph. I love that wine. It's interesting to me because that was the first thing that woke me up. I said this name is so complicated. What does Isodi mean?

Alessandro Cellai: 23:34

Isodi means in Tuscany dialect means a strong soil.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:41

It's. The soil is very strong. Yeah, and rich in rocks Right, the skin is also very dark. Yes, which is the local clone, and it's around the parish of St Nicolo. Yes, the church, yeah, clone, and it's around the parish of St Nicolo. Yes, which is like and I said, who names a name like that?

Alessandro Cellai: 24:04

and the Mr Panerai with Luigi Veronelli, just in the middle of 70s, when Panerai bought the first land in Castellare Luigi Veronelli was at that time was the major middle of 70s, when Panerai bought the first land in Castellare. Luigi Veronelli was at that time the major wine journalist we can say like that, and he recommended to grow this wine through the soil and through the location of the vineyard. And that's the reason why I say so the San Nicolò.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:37

Yeah, it's a beautiful name. It's a beautiful name, it says it all.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 24:41

And the San Giovese of Esodi is in a special area in that area, compared to the Castellari Chianti in the reserve. Yes, this is the.

Alessandro Cellai: 24:50

It's a specific clone, a specific owned clone of Castellari. It's a specific clone, a specific owned clone of Castellari.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:58

It's a blend of St Giovese and Malvasia Nera San Giovetto. San Giovetto. Right, it's not a St Giovese, exactly, it's the name of the clone Right.

Alessandro Cellai: 25:10

San Giovetto is the name of the clone of San Giovese that we are using for the zombie Right, and the Malvasia is the name of the clone of Sangiovese that we are using for risotto Right.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 25:16

And the Malvasia? Is the other 15% right? It's usually 85-15?

S. Simon Jacob: 25:20

Yes, yeah, the next question I had was and again, going along with this whole visual thing is the Renzo Piano Winery.

Alessandro Cellai: 25:33

Yeah, broca, broca di Sostinella is the Renzo Piano Winery. Yeah, welcome, welcome to.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:37

Senella. It's crazy because one of the most famous, renowned architects, yes, and because of that it had all sorts of special things like gravity, flow, natural light. You know, it's an incredible winery and it's an incredible, again, recognition of something very creative but also very visual. So I thought it was very interesting.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 26:10

How did that form? How did that relationship form that form?

Alessandro Cellai: 26:12

How did that relationship form this is. Renzo Piano was, since the beginning of his career, a big friend of Mr Panerai, the owner of Castellare, and when, of course, when we started to think about Rocca di Frascinello, renzo Piano was already very, very famous and Mr Panerai invited him to create the project of the cellar. Renzo Piano never did before Rocco di Frassinello a cellar and also never after. Rocco di Frassinello remained the only one cellar designed by Renzo Piano and he was very, very excited to do that. And he was very humble, because I still remember when he decided to accept the commitment of Mr Panerai, he said okay, but Alessandro has to be at least for one week in Paris to spend time with all of my architects, because I really want to understand which is the the needs of the production side versus the architectural side, because it's much important, much more important, to produce a beautiful cellar but that must be at the disposal of the technicians, the people that has to work inside. Then it's a beautiful cellar but not useful for the people that has to work inside. So that was very, very humble.

Alessandro Cellai: 27:57

I spent a week in paris giving all the information to the architects. So we need this, we need that, this level, this, this must be the bottling line and this must be. And then they put the dress around my request. That was very, very important Because at the beginning, when Mr Panerai informed me that the Rens Piano accepted the project, I was a little bit scared because I was thinking that maybe this artist and they think just to the architectural side, the beauty, you know, but not by the real use. We have to do the opposite. Enzo Piano was an amazing architect and he was thinking about the idea of production. The idea of production, the idea of family reunion. The Sagrato was made just this, because it was considered the cellar, a point of reunion of people that work in, that are enjoying the production of wine, that are drinking the wine. So that is a beautiful thing.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:19

Very cool, very interesting.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 29:22

Was he tied to the project? Do you think? I mean? He made crazy things, Simon. He did the New York Times building, he did the Museum of Art, he did the airport in Japan.

Alessandro Cellai: 29:36

He did one of the two top architects in the world.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 29:40

When he did the winery. What was his emotions?

Alessandro Cellai: 29:44

Yeah, he was very, very excited and because he had his young age with his uncle that his uncle was a little producer, a little wine producer in Liguria, and he spent time with his uncle, like me, but I spent much more time with my uncle, and so he was very, very interested, since he was a child, about the wine world and so that for him to design one of the most important cellars in Italy for him was a big enthusiasm.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 30:23

I mean, whatever he's describing is nothing to. When you get there and I tell you all the time we have to make a trip when you walk into that barrel room you've been to many wineries you see they're all stacked on top. Make a trip. When you walk into that barrel room. You've been to many wineries. You see they're all stacked on top of each other. When you walk into that barrel room, it's like you almost feel like you stepped into heaven. It's so beautiful and it's not made like a barrel room. They had made concerts in there. It's an open space. It's just so beautiful. I'll send you some images from when I was there. It's something unbelievable.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:00

Okay, so I want to go to the next subject. Okay, because it's like never ending and I don't want to take the whole evening from you here. I really promise to cut this back a little bit. Buffanero has become like an iconic 100% Merlot. Why did you decide to plant Merlot and Marima?

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 31:26

By the way, here's the image of the bottle I pulled out from my cellars.

Alessandro Cellai: 31:32

That was one idea of Mr Panerai. When one day, when we just planted the vineyard because at that time Masseto, the best Italian Merlot, was already created and was already famous and Mr Panerai asked me his desire, I said I really want to make a Merlot, with the attitude to become a great Merlot, like you said. And I said, ok, we try to do. We have a great soil, we have great vineyards, and I started to study how to work to make this beautiful combination and in 2007, I decided so we are at the right moment to produce this top Merlot. And I started to produce this wine in 2007.

Alessandro Cellai: 32:37

Immediately, since the beginning, the recognition of the best wine writers around the world was impressive and now it's one of the two or three top Merlot of Italy and one of the five, six top Merlot in the world. Little production we pick the grapes individually, berry by berry, we do the fermentation in Tantrit and we aged for two years in French Elk and then totally manually moved, not the machine or touching the swine, and we stain the grapes by hand. That's the reason why we pick and we select individually, berry by berry, and then this is an extremely great concentration, but at the same time, there is a beautiful finesse, a beautiful elegance and a great taste.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:38

Who came up with the name?

Alessandro Cellai: 33:40

Baffanero is the name of the piece of soil where the vineyard is located. Baffanero means black mustard. Yeah, that was the name of the soil and we took that name to bring into the wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:58

Love it. How does Baffanaro differ from Bordeaux or right bank Merlot?

Alessandro Cellai: 34:06

Of course Baterrois is completely different. We are near the sea but at the same time we are in the middle of the hill, so we have a beautiful influence of the sea, but at the same time we are in the middle of the hill, so we have a beautiful influence of the sea, but at the same time we have a limestone. So it's a very particular micro terroir that we have in Rocca di Fasinello, in Rocca di Frascinello and especially, the main difference is that in Bordeaux the top mellows always you can feel, when you taste, a little green character. In Rocca di Frascinello you can never taste like that. So that is much more for my personal palate, much more elegant, much more enjoyable since the beginning. Of course, although maybe we are talking about a hundred years' life, raffaello, we don't have yet a hundred years of experience, but I am almost sure that we also can taste and appreciate this wine for many, many years.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 35:20

So, simon, just to touch on it so people understand, I've been there. I've been there. You're standing on the top of Roca de Franceneno's winery. You have a big outdoor patio. If you look into the distance, you can see the sea. Marema is on the coast and then on the right you'll see three huge mountains, big mountain hills. So you get this, you go there. If you go there early in the morning, you get this very cold. It has crazy diurnal variation and you can get. You see, you can actually see the sea from the background while you see the mountainside. It's an incredible sort of micro climate that he's describing. So you're getting a lot of influence off the ocean and it's being protected by these big mountains on the outside. It's a very fascinating place, besides the fact that Renzo made it and it's beautiful. Just the actual vineyard in the area is something that you don't see in many places.

S. Simon Jacob: 36:17

Yes, correct the balance of Sangiovese and Bordeaux grapes. Has the climate change shifted the blending decisions with that?

Alessandro Cellai: 36:29

Honestly, in all the vineries where I'm working right now, where I'm working right now, I never, never, had the feeling that the climate change is modifying my touch into the grapes and into the wine, because the vines are trees that are extremely able to adapt themselves to the change of the micro time, and never I had a bad experience. Of course we had some. For example, this year we had one or two weeks extremely hot. It was 40, 42 degrees but during the night we have a big excursion of temperature, so temperature during the night is going down rapidly and then fast, and then in that conditions the ripening is growing beautifully without any effect, any damage or any needs to modify the management of the vineyard. But the trees, the vines, are beautiful trees, very smart trees, and they adapt themselves very quickly.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 37:59

I mean the testament to that, the percentage of Merlot and Cabernet that you put into the Super Tuscan. It's been relatively the same from what we described, even since I've been working with you, absolutely.

S. Simon Jacob: 38:11

I was going to ask that how do you decide on the proportions? How did you decide on the proportions? How did you decide on the proportions, the proportion.

Alessandro Cellai: 38:18

of course we have a kind of idea that we decided years ago, but normally every vintage is a different story. So in every vintage I can decide to use a little bit less on this, a little bit more on that. But because it depends on the feeling, the taste, the balance, this is extremely, extremely important to verify every single vintage, what we have in front of us.

S. Simon Jacob: 38:57

All right, I want to change the subject again. What attracted you to Sicily, to the Sicilian vineyards, with your project in Sicily?

Alessandro Cellai: 39:08

The project in Sicily is another very exciting project because Sicily, following also the idea of jacomo takis, the sicilian terroir is the best to produce anything you want, because the sun is beautiful, the microclime is amazing, the terroir is fantastic and sicily, for me, was a an amazing experience and it still is an amazing experience and especially where we are located. We are in a beautiful hill between 200 and 300 meters elevation, and in front of us we have the sea. So we have all the benefits from the sea, so bringing a lot of breeze, especially during the evening, cooling down the temperature, and we have all the beautiful benefits from the sun giving texture, giving power, energy, without to lose the freshness, the elegance and the beautiful drinkability so is that is that the difference between the Sicilian terroir and Tuscany?

Alessandro Cellai: 40:20

Yeah, a lot of difference. A lot of difference because mainly the soil in Sicily is especially in our side is based by sandy and in Tuscany we have more limestone, so that is a huge difference.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 40:42

And the temperature right. It's much hotter more in.

Alessandro Cellai: 40:44

Sicily. Yeah, temperature is also. But, for example, that is the crazy thing, but this year the maximum temperature of Sicily was 41. The maximum temperature in Tuscany was 43. Wow, you can't believe it. Huh, yeah, that's the true thing, because, especially in our site, we have the beautiful breeze coming from the ocean and making the temperature a little controlled, especially during the last part of the day.

S. Simon Jacob: 41:27

Just a few more questions. I love your designer labels project. What a great idea to come out with all the series of the different designers and how to unify art in Italy and the design, especially with the grapes and the wines. It's a beautiful idea, incredible idea.

Alessandro Cellai: 41:53

Thank you. This is an idea from Mr Tanerai that he is in touch with all of the major fashion designers through his main business that is a publisher, and when we started the Sicilian project, he was thinking about this idea to make a sort of combination of the most important and famous fashion designers to produce a label for the project and without any fee for them. But the opposite we spend the same amount of money to help the renovation of museums and hard works of sicilian culture. So that that was a beautiful idea. The special designers was extremely happy because they advertised them the project. They are bringing some of the profits to the renovation of museums and hard works on assisting a culture.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:03

Okay, so let's discuss a white for a second. Tursat is also a very interesting project with Chardonnay and Viognier. I know it's unusual for Sicily, but it's also, I think, unusual in the rest of the world. So tell me a little bit about that. What influenced that?

Alessandro Cellai: 43:31

First of all, this is the second winery that we have in Sicily. It's a little winery, it's only five hectares and it's on the opposite side of Sicily. So the Piscotto is the southeast, so the Curavimare is the northwest. We are near Memphis and we are just in a beautiful hill, from 80 meters above the sea level and going down into the sea. That is a beautiful hill starting with a limestone in the top and arriving at the beach with the last lines. So we have a variation of terroir, variation of everything, and that is the beautiful combination between the power and the elegance of Chardonnay and the finesse, the beauty of the nose and the flavor taste of Ionier, of Ionier. That is the beautiful, beautiful combination. And you feel the saltiness because we are really close. We are 50 meters from the last vine, is 50 meters from the water.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 44:51

So it goes like a slope all the way down.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:53

Yes, have you tasted that, Ralph?

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 44:57

Yeah, we made it. It was our first wine. It was our first wine, one of the first runs, when we made Fadidi Pichotto. We made a Cabernet which has the Missoni label. We made the Nero d'Abala, which is indigenous grape to Sicily, so we have to make that one that was made by Versace. And then we made the Merlot Valentino. It was Valentino, and because Alessandro makes Merlot and then I told him, if we're already doing that, let's make the white wine. And we made white wine. It ages on the leaves, correct also. Yes, 100%. No, French oak. Yeah, it's just a very old-fashioned type of white wine that ages over time. It was one of our first higher-end, ageable white wines.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:45

Yes, I don't know if I ever tasted that. I must have.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 45:48

You must have because it was one of our really first and obviously we got it before we got the reds, so we were selling it out. It's a beautiful wine. I must have. That wine is that was our first and it's so unique. He mentioned a very subtle comment, but it's really one of the wines where you're not getting a fattery, buttery California Chardonnay. It has the Chardonnay qualities of Burgundy and what you find on it is that at the back palate you get this minerality, this saltiness that is indescribable. And even if the guy says I don't know how to taste wine, it's so evident to him. And it's such a beautiful different wine. Oh, we sold out of it a while ago.

Alessandro Cellai: 46:37

we only made one vintage of it and uh I I want to say special thanks to ralph because the past year he allowed me to make, for the first time in my experience, the Mevushal wine. That was an amazing experience for me because we always made no Mevushal, but this year Ralph convinced me and allowed me to produce, in Valle Piccola, chianti Classico Mevushal and in Roccheri, frassinello Sugare Mevushal.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 47:14

These are the pains of the Mashiach when an Italian winemaker is reminding us that he made Mevushal wine.

Alessandro Cellai: 47:24

Yeah, that was very because, honestly, and I'm very excited for two things. The first thing because when Rav proposed me I was a little bit scared. I'm very honest because, as a winemaker, considering a pasteurization, even for a few seconds, is still a pasteurization, so it's a very high temperature for the wine and it's not always a good effect for the wine and it's not always a good effect, but I can say tasting the wine, with and without pasteurization, doesn't make any. At the moment, after eight months, seven months, never we are finding a difference.

S. Simon Jacob: 48:09

That was the question I was going to ask you. Did you find a difference?

Alessandro Cellai: 48:13

No, not yet. Not yet. I'm curious to pace time by time. Maybe next year or two years to understand, but for the moment no difference.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 48:26

That's amazing. Yeah, by the way, we've been through a couple of renditions. We started with Pescaia and I have Alessandro speak to Pepe Pescaia all the time. You know he adopted it very early. I think what happened with that and the way it happened, was that the wines are just so good and the restaurants want them. So when I first talked to Alessandro, he's like no, no way, no way, there's no way I'm going to take my wine especially. Send your vest.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 48:55

You know it's a very lighter grape and it's not. You know it's not. It has big tannins, the skin is not as big as the cab, the Merlot, the Nebbiolo, so. So we actually made one in Italy with an Italian pasteurization machine. It was horrible. The Montepulciano did well with it, because I think it was also in that same ruggedness but in the other ones, and we just threw it out. Then we went to France and we literally the machine that we bought Valle Piccola, which is his second winery. That's the machine we used, but we did three runs before we introduced it, and I remember, alessandro, I even sent you a couple of samples of non-Mewushal and Mewushal from the.

Alessandro Cellai: 49:37

No, but I say I want to thank you because I'm learning, I'm understanding that this is a very, very interesting process and at the moment I don't feel any difference into the wine.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 49:52

And it came out. We made the Valle Piccola Chianti Mebuscial. We also. We made the Super Tuscan Le Sugere. We made it Mebuscial Salmon. And you know why? Because the demand for the high is so high. So we made Pescaia Arnes. We made Pescaia Nebbiolo Barbera and I said, okay, fine, northern, we have a little bit of a northern Mebusha. Now I want Tuscan, the heart of Tuscany, and I think this attests to who Alessandro Celay is. He's not square in his mind, he thinks outside of the box, he plays with it, he investigates it. And you know what? The reason I picked him I could have picked other people is because I know he's going to exhaust the options to make sure that his label is on it, that the wine is just as good, and I think that's what we did.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:38

In 2021, what convinced you to join this relatively young project? Malepiccio, yeah.

Alessandro Cellai: 50:45

Yeah, because, as I said before, it was for me a kind of a challenge for my career to bring a new project rapidly from zero to a very high level and in fact, the the with the vintage 2021. So I started to work with the 2019 vintage. So after three vintages, the 2021 was included in the top 100 wines of the world by Wine Spectator. So from zero to the top 100 wines of the world in three years and we are growing. We are having a big success and the wine is very well appreciated all over around the world. We are selling the wine in over 40 countries around the world and it's still a young project but with a great material to become rapidly one of the point of reference in the Tuscany wine production.

Dr. Ralph Madeb: 51:58

I mean, if we, hopefully I keep saying we're going to go, but if you just put it in your mind and your podcast members, Castellari is as you would imagine you're in 1950, is as you would imagine you're in 1950, old school, old brick Tuscan cellar, it's just old vines, it's an older, very mature winery, how you expect wineries in your mind or envision it in the movies. Valle Picciola is brand spanking new, top of the line optical sorters from France that are brand new. It's a brand new, highly adaptive, highly. You know, sophisticated nouveau riche, so to speak, sort of like the Rockefellers and the Jamie Dimon. You know new money, old money, it's old, old winemaking, brand new winemaking. And you know the only common denominator is Alessandro Celai. And you know the only common denominator it's Alessandro Celag, it's Alessandro. So you have the same winemaker making these paradoxical one zero, no much, as the good book says, and that's the wineries.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:04

So, Alessandro, Dr. Ralph has been talking to me about you for a long time. I've wanted to do this for a while and we've talked about it for a little bit and I hadn't really grasped who we were talking about until I started doing a little bit of research and then, all of a sudden, I went wow, what am I? You know like I'm humbled by even you giving me the time to ask you questions, because it's so, this is just really so special. It's amazing, it's absolutely okay. So now it's nearly 30 years of winemaking. I don't want to go into the details too much, but what do you want your legacy to be? What do you want to be remembered by?

Alessandro Cellai: 53:52

That's a great question. That is a question. So, after I think, a good career, my idea and I really hope, because I have two kids, a boy and girl. Both are graduated in winemaker, one just finished a month ago and my daughter will finish in two months, and my idea is to bring to them all of my attitude, all of my feelings, all of my ideas, but of course they have to bring also their idea by themselves. But I hope that they can bring, to bring my philosophy for the future. That is my dream. So I want to bring my philosophy for the future. That is my dream. So I want to leave my legacy to them.

S. Simon Jacob: 55:00

I love it. Please, God, they will be as creative as you.

Alessandro Cellai: 55:05

I consider myself a very fortunate man because I had a lot of great, beautiful moments in my career. I had a fantastic moment in my life, I had the opportunity to meet wonderful persons like Dr Ralph and I had great experiences. But always what I was thinking since my beginning, that always we can learn, always we can be better, always we can do better. And that was my idea, was my target Vintage by vintage, to try to grow, to make a little step on, and that was my never to consider myself arrived, never to consider the level I reached as the maximum. Always we can do better, time by time is the idea, the motivation, the attitude must be to create something better, year by year.

S. Simon Jacob: 56:24

Amazing. I thank you. I feel incredibly privileged to have had you on this podcast and I always feel privileged with Dr Ralph, but it's you're, you're really. It's awesome to go through this and I really look forward to meeting you in the future. From Siena's cellars to kosher barrels, today's journey reminds us that wine isn't just chemistry, it's conviction, it's culture, it's community. Alessandro Cellai crafts the vision, Dr. Ralph Medeb ensures the bridge, and together they've written a decade-long chapter in kosher wine history.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:16

But the story doesn't end here. On our next episode we'll open up another door into the hidden corners of the wine world Fresh terroir, new voices and ideas that challenge what we thought we knew. So stay with us, subscribe, if you haven't already, and let the kosher terroir be your passport to the next great glass. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.