Solomon Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terrior. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome back to the Kosher Terroir. Today we're starting with a trilogy of wines emerging from the cellars of Shiloh Wineries their new legend series named Itai, Adino and Ira. And they're not just special releases. They're a declaration of intent in our discussions with Amichai Lourie, Shiloh's visionary winemaker.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 0:53

He isn't just crafting expressive, age-worthy wines these days. He's actually aiming for something even more audacious Israel's first 100-point wine. But what does it really take to create a perfect wine? Is it the grapes, the place, the hand of the winemaker or the palate of the critics? To help us explore that very question, I'm joined by two of the kosher wine world's most trusted and influential voices Gabriel Geller, the Director of Public Relations and Wine Education Manager at Royal Wine, and Jay Buchsbaum, vice President of Marketing and Director of Consumer Education for Royal. Together, we'll all taste through the New Legends series, discussing each of their specific nuances and market focus, and debate what makes a wine world-class and ask Can Israel make a wine that belongs in the same breath as Bordeaux's first growths or Napa's cult classics.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 2:02

Whether you're a collector, a casual sipper or a believer in the power of possibility, this episode is for you. If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're sitting at home, pour yourself a glass of wonderful kosher wine. Sit back and listen to this episode of the Kosher Jirir, as today we Tell us about the vision behind the new legend series, Itai, Adino, and Ira, and what inspired their creation. are not just tasting wines, we're chasing legends. First of all, welcome to The Kosher Terroir. Amichai.

Amichai Lourie: 2:42

So I think that making great wine is important but, also, you need a good label and I wasn't ever 100% happy with the previous labels that we had for the Legend series and for the theme legend series and for the theme and uh, since, uh, the 2021 vintage of the legend was sold very, very quickly and was sold out and then on the Shemitah year of 2022, we didn't make any legend at all, so for a long time this was out of the market. So we said it's an opportunity to um to make a new label and a new theme for the, for the legend series, and because on the 2021 vintage we made a new blend and we didn't even label it when we bottled it, because we didn't know what the new theme would be and what we're doing, know what the new theme would be and what we're doing. And then we came up with the idea to use the heroes of David HaMelech.

Amichai Lourie: 3:57

King David had, or it's listed in Devar, hayamim and in Shmuel, etc. The heroes that surrounded him, him and a lot of the. There are also agadot and midrashim about some of these heroes. So he said you know, it might be a great opportunity to use the theme of the heroes of David HaMelech for the legend series. I also very much like the idea of safra v'saifa. That means that you also learn, but also, when you have to, you also use your strength. And Chazal speak a lot about our great heroes over the centuries. That were great leaders. They weren't only leaders in Torah, but they were also leaders in the battlefield when necessary. And that's the idea. This is what we decided to do.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 5:08

How did the wines reflect Shiloh's evolution as a winery and your personal growth as a winemaker?

Amichai Lourie: 5:16

Well, we try to do things a little bit different. Like the legend, adino, which used to be called the Legend Fiddler, is a unique blend and when we started doing it, I think there was nobody else in the world that actually blended Petit Syrah, petit Verdun and Shiraz and it turned out to be a major big hit. And it turned out to be a major big hit and showing that we can do something that's different, and we were looking for something very big, powerful, very fruity wine and something that you don't even have to put your nose in the glass. The aromas come to you, and that's how it started. And then it evolved and we did another legend that used to be called Legend Rony and now it's called Legend Ditaille, of Cabernet Sauvignon, cabernet Franc and Malbec.

Amichai Lourie: 6:21

And if we're talking about how things progress, then we wanted to do a unique wine and something different than most of the wines that we make in the winery and we made a blend that started as a Granada Sirah in Barbera and then, right before bottling, we decided to add some carinian and it turned out to be so good that we actually put it back in barrels for another couple of months before bottling and I think we came up with something very different, showing that a wine doesn't have to be heavy and big and powerful to be interesting. A wine can be a lighter wine, but very complex and very interesting, and that's how the legend Ira came to life.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 7:21

I'd like to ask just one more question before we do the tasting. I'd like to ask just one more question before we do the tasting Was there a conscious effort to?

Amichai Lourie: 7:32

craft each of these wines for different audiences or different occasions. So this gradually happened over the years. It started as powerful wine and then we wanted to look for something a little bit more elegant and more complex of years later we came up with a blend of the wine of the Cabernet Sauvignon, cabernet Franc and Malbec, especially because the Cabernet Franc has been getting better and better in our vineyards and we thought a blend that had the Cabernet Franc in it would be a very complex and interesting wine. And then it evolved to trying to do something really different and showing that a wine can be light but very interesting and complex. I think I've been tasting and trying to make a Pinot Noir and I think that's where I got to that trying to make something that's yet much lighter but very interesting. So that's what pushed me towards making this kind of blend. By the way, we just bottled our first Pinot Noir.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 8:58

Mazaltov, and I tasted it already. So I'm very much looking forward to what the bottle is like. So thank you for letting me taste it. Let's pull in the experts. Gabriel Jay, can you taste the wines? Can we go through them? I guess we should taste them in order Itai first, then Adino and then I think Amichai should decide what the order should be.

Gabriel Geller: 9:24

What's the orderai? First, then Adino, and then I think Amichai should decide yeah, the order should be.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 9:25

What's the order, Amichai?

Amichai Lourie: 9:27

Well, I think, because the lightest is the Ira, then maybe we should, and because it's the newest wine, so maybe we can start from there. Good, by the way, there's also different vintages, like the Ira is the 2021, and the Adu and Yitair 2023, by the way, so maybe starting with the Yerah might be the best.

Jay Buchsbaum: 9:51

But you know, I mean, I see this almost everywhere these days, the inclusion of Syrah and blends from Israel, and I think it's because of the richness of it. So, even though you're telling me that, if we're going to get into heavier than this, then I'm curious as to the fact that you have this Syrah in here.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 10:16

Doesn't that give it heft?

Jay Buchsbaum: 10:17

Doesn't that give it spiciness? Doesn't that give this big flavors? I don't know. I'm going to taste it now.

Amichai Lourie: 10:23

I think the Syrah that I used for this wine, this specific vineyard that we used in this wine, is, I would say, a spicier, lighter Syrah, much more. There's no black. A Syrah will a lot of times have black fruit in it and here it's, I'd say, spice and red fruit, and I think you can even this sirah you can even if you look for it or if you have the bottle open for a couple of hours, you'll actually get even notes of black pepper, and that's why I use this specific Syrah for this wine. Actually, the Syrah that's in the Iadino is a completely different vineyard and much more black fruit and riper fruit than this, uh, the sirah in this wine.

Jay Buchsbaum: 11:26

I think it's fascinating go ahead I think it's fascinating that that and this is a good lesson for all of us that you have precisely the same grape. By the way, you see this in italy a lot. You see this in other areas, where precisely the same grape sangiovese, barbera or whatever can be totally different depending on how it's made and certainly depending on where it comes from. So this is a great example of that. I find this wine to be extremely complex. You can actually identify different flavor profiles as you drink it. And you're right, I think it's medium-bodied, I think it's got some tannins on the gums, but it's not oh, you know, it's not a blockbuster.

Gabriel Geller: 12:13

Yeah, it's a wine that can and should be enjoyed now, even though it should go for quite a number of years. I mean, we know Amichai, we know the Shiloh wines. They have a track record of aging nicely for a pretty extended amount of time, especially compared to most Israeli wines. And I agree, it's medium-bodied, very approachable. Red fruit, spice herbs as well. You get some nice acidity, I imagine, from the barbara, from the carnage as well. Red fruit definitely more dominant. There's some black fruit too, but I would say that the red fruit is more….

Solomon Simon Jacob: 12:59

The red fruit is more pronounced.

Amichai Lourie: 13:01

Really nice. You know, when somebody asks me, you know sometimes people ask me okay, what do you pair with this wine? You're a foodie, you like to eat. What do you pair with the Yirah wine? I say the perfect pairing for the Yirah wine is my wife. I mean, it's not what you're eating with it, it's who you're drinking with it. Right, I mean, this is a wine that you pair with a good friend. It's a wine that you pair with your spouse. It doesn't need food. So sometimes the perfect pairing is who you drink it with and not what you drink it with right, very nice and also I see that it's, uh, the the only wine out of the three wines did not be Mavushal.

Amichai Lourie: 13:58

Is that a strategic decision? Some blind tests for the past couple of years, testing Mavushal, non-mavushal, of older wines and of wines that we're actually about to bottle, wines that we just bottled, et cetera. And he makes it really challenging. So he'll put three glasses in front of me. I don't know if two are Mavushal and one isn't, or the other way around, if I can tell them apart, which one I think is better. And I can say that still, sometimes I'll pick even the Mavushal wine as better and sometimes I can't tell the difference.

Amichai Lourie: 14:41

But there's something in this wine that I didn't want to take any chances that the Mavushal process would change it, and that's the special spice that you get in this wine, especially if you leave it open for a couple of days. We were planning to do this Zoom recording. Two days ago I opened the wine. Then we already finished half of the bottles here, but I left them open and I'm tasting the wines that opened two days ago. Okay, and I can still. Once I opened it, you get a little bit. You have to look for the spice and for the black pepper for some of it, especially the black pepper and the spice, but after opening for two days it's really there.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 15:19

It's really pronounced. I did the same thing and I'm, I'm, and I'm getting that. When you said black pepper, I went wow, yes, 100 percent yeah, nice long finish.

Amichai Lourie: 15:31

Okay, well and nice long finish. Even though it's not a heavy wine, it still has a long finish and the flavor stay in your mouth and that's why I say you don't need any food with this. It's's almost like a Shaleh Shudis wine. You know what I mean the wine that helps you leave Shabbos gradually.

Jay Buchsbaum: 15:52

I might even suggest that this be slightly chilled. When I say slightly chilled, I don't mean refrigerated, I mean cool, like you would perhaps with a Beaujolais 100% Cellar temperature like 60 would perhaps with a Beaujolais A hundred percent.

Amichai Lourie: 16:08

Cellar temperature like 60 degrees, right like 14 to 16 Celsius. I agree a hundred percent. I have a friend that got a couple of cases of this after tasting the wine. And then he calls me up a couple of weeks ago, mosei Shabbat, and he says you know, you said to me it's a good wine for Sardash Lishit. Since I started drinking this wine in Sardash Lishit I exit Shabbos like Rabbeinu Tam Gives it another that extra.

Jay Buchsbaum: 16:41

That 61 degrees is 16 Celsius.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 16:44

Yeah, I agree, agree okay, which is the next one?

Jay Buchsbaum: 16:49

and then you know, I also I've done this before from my own cellar, which is, you know, somewhere in the high 50s, about 60 and um, and I've done this before. It's, it's on reds, you. You take it out the first sip is really cool, and then, as it warms up, it gets even. I mean, it just got this great evolution. If it's meant to be that way, it really does.

Amichai Lourie: 17:17

You enjoy the change in the wine too when you do it that way. That's why I do it a lot.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 17:22

And also, as it warms up, the aromas and the flavors start to really come out of it as well, in a very nice way, especially the aromatics. Yeah, the aromatics, that's what I'm looking for. Okay, what's next?

Amichai Lourie: 17:35

The next wine is Legend Itai Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc and Malbec. Like you said, Merlot grows just a little bit different in the Chilo region, I think Cabernet Franc you can say the same, and Cabernet Franc is less green but gives it a lot of power to it and makes it a very big, complex wine. It's called Legend Itai, if we're talking about the theme of the heroes of David HaMelech. So Itai was from Bnei Binyamin and they were known to be not just scholars but also very warriors, right the Binyamin tribe. But it wasn't just war. You know the Rashi Tevot of Itay. Itay is Eretz Yisrael, Torah Yisrael, and if you want to win Eretz Yisrael, it's not just by being a warrior, it's also by using Torah Yisrael. So that's the Rashi Tevot of the Yitai.

Gabriel Geller: 18:58

I have to say that the Cabernet is pretty obvious on the nose, especially the Cabernet Franc with the green pepper, definitely distinctive.

Amichai Lourie: 19:09

You know the green comes more from the Cabernet Sauvignon than the Cabernet Franc. That means I know where it came from. Okay, the.

Amichai Lourie: 19:16

Cabernet Sauvignon in here is greener than the Cabernet Franc. I think the Cabernet Franc here gives a lot to the mint palate and I think the mint palate here is really impressive. And uh, you know, I've I've the past couple of years I always look for the wine to be round, with no rough edges. That means I I look for also wines like that. Sometimes you want a wine that's really powerful, you want it to cut right through the steak and whatever, but sometimes you're looking for something for it to be round, a big mid palette, a lot of flavor, and I think this is a perfect example to, like some people say listen, it's like the mosaic, but maybe dial it down just a little bit.

Jay Buchsbaum: 20:14

You know it's like I was going to say I find almost a bit of creaminess to it yeah you know that that speaks to your roundness that you speak of.

Jay Buchsbaum: 20:24

I really find a bit of creaminess to this, a bit of, um, not in your face, opul of not-in-your-face opulence, if you will. You know, not-in-your-face being the adjective modifying opulence in this case. So exactly what I mean, kind of along the lines of what you just said about you know, a lower volume mosaic, if you will. You know, a lower volume mosaic, I'm telling you it's got a richness to it, it's got lots of fruit, without being like knocking you over the head with a two-by-four in fruit, without that, you know, yeah.

Amichai Lourie: 21:00

It has like the quality of a really, really good chocolate you know every now and then you get a really really good chocolate, that kind of flavor to it.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 21:15

I liked it yesterday, not yesterday, two days ago when I tasted it but I really like it now. Honestly, being open for a couple of days, it's really developed, so something to look forward to.

Amichai Lourie: 21:30

You know, many, many years ago I used to go to Eli Ben-Zaken from Castel and I'd get a couple of cases from him personally and I remember for a couple of times my wife and I would go there and for a couple of times my wife and I would go there and she would take us through the wine that he is selling, but they take us through it. This was opened up yesterday, this was two days ago, five days ago, six days ago we do like a flight of the same wine that we just bought, but a couple of days back. And so I learned this from him I don't know, like maybe 20 years ago, something like that and since then I do it a lot and I open up. We open up most of our Shabbos wines Thursday night already and we usually try to open up enough to last us also for Sunday. So you enjoy the the wine in a different way when you enjoy it gradually, like that the development was trying.

Amichai Lourie: 22:40

I always recommend it. It's a big, fruity, powerful wine, perfect for pairing, for steak, for lamb, for the good stuff. It has the acidity, it has the fruit and it's a perfect pairing. It's a perfect food wine.

Jay Buchsbaum: 23:15

What I find so obvious immediately is the color Color is. You know. I have this thing where I teach people. If you look down into the center of your glass, one of the ways you look at color is to see. If you look down into the center of your glass, one of the ways you look at color is to see if you can see your fingers from the top. You know, look straight down and see if you can see your fingers. If you can see your fingers, depending on how much of a you know, how much visual you get is depending on how intense you can describe the color.

Jay Buchsbaum: 23:47

This is like black in the center, almost very dark purple and yeah, and I think I think even before, and then I did it to the nose and I go through that process sight, smell and then, of course, flavors. But the nose follows through with, you know, this big opulent aromatics. Really, if you look at the legs, even it's got. I mean, what is the alcohol on?

Amichai Lourie: 24:17

this I do know it's 14 and a half, 14 and a half yeah 14 and a half, but we just tasted three wines and I think the alcohol is very well integrated into these wines.

Jay Buchsbaum: 24:29

Wow, you know what I call this.

Amichai Lourie: 24:33

I call this a lip smacker. That's what I said. You need the right kind of food for this.

Jay Buchsbaum: 24:37

No, but it's so deliciously fruity. It's so you. In that respect. One of the reasons why Amichai, your wine, score Shiloh scores the way they do, is because of this flavor, this flavor profiles that people so much enjoy that I don't know of another winery that does it as consistently as you do.

Jay Buchsbaum: 25:06

It's so friendly, it's so tasty and it's so lip-sm so tasty and it's so lip smacking. On and on and on throughout pretty much all of your wines. I think that's what gets you those people critics, consumers, etc. They pick it up and they go boy, I really like this wine. And then they give it the scores that they give it.

Amichai Lourie: 25:25

You know it's a lot of hard. The most shilo of the three wines that they give it, you know?

Gabriel Geller: 25:28

Yeah, I think this is a lot of hard. The most Shiloh of the three wines, right, the most you know, representative as a whole. I wanted to say before that the Yitai it's you know. People say, oh, you know, shiloh wines are so bold and fruitful, et cetera, which is not untrue, but they're not all the same. And the Ita is definitely standing there as more restrained, more old-born I would say in style, more old-born I would say in style, and the Adino is more of that Shilo style that people talk about, but it has.

Amichai Lourie: 26:20

Again, it's also distinctive. I think the challenge in making wine consistent is very important. I mean, if people buy wine, they want the next year to be just as good, more of the same. You know you like what's familiar, but it's also, first of all, for me it's a challenge to also make different wines, also for a different audience. You know Other people like other wines, so let's make some things that are a little bit different. And like the Barbera that we make every year, that's very unique. Like the Legendira, that's different and unique.

Amichai Lourie: 26:58

So looking for things that are a little bit different, I think first of all it keeps it more interesting for me as a winemaker to also do things that are a little bit different for other audiences and for other occasions.

Amichai Lourie: 27:14

And the challenge is always there to try and do also something different, not more of the same. So I think this really represents three completely different wines in the same series, so everybody can find something that he likes. You know I always recommend, like I said, I recommend people open up your wines for Shabbat, open them up Thursday night and see how they are on Thursday, friday, on Shabbos, mose, shabbos, sunday, and then you see how the wines evolve. But also sometimes it's very interesting to put in front of you two or three glasses of wine and drink while you're eating especially a long meal, like on Shabbos Instead of having only one kind of wine or one glass and changing different wines, have in front of you two or three different wines and bounce back and forth while you're eating between the different wines, and that way you can. Everything is much better, the food is much better, the wine is much better and the experience is much more fun that way.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 28:23

You know, amichai. You talked to us about the label design and the branding. What story are you trying to tell visually with the label?

Amichai Lourie: 28:33

We're waiting for Mashiach ben David or we're working on Mashiach ben David, and I think showing and talking about David HaMelech is times what we're going through, I mean not just now during the war, but in general Talking about David Amelech. I think is important Talking what David Amelech stands for, where he came from and where we're going, and understanding that David HaMelech had heroes that were very big in Torah and Kehuna. Ira was a Kohen and a scholar. Everybody learned and fought.

Amichai Lourie: 29:28

The Gemara talks about Adino. Why was this hero called Adino? Adino is, as in delicate, you know, soft. So the Gemara says why was he called Adino? Ha'etzin? That was his name. So the Gemara says that in the Midrash says that when he was in the Bet Midrash, when he was learning, he was flexible and delicate adino, but when he had to go fight, then he was aetzni. He was very strong, like tough wood, very strong like tough wood.

Amichai Lourie: 30:12

And I think that it's important that we understand that maybe this is what we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be safa v'saifa. We're supposed to be very strong, learning and understanding where we came from, but also understand that our strength comes from our history and from the Torah. The strength doesn't come just from strength alone. Itai is Eretz Yisrael, torah Yisrael. You're not just Torah Yisrael, you're also Eretz Yisrael, torat Yisrael. You're not just Torat Yisrael, you're also Eretz Yisrael, and you're also a hero, and you know how to hold your sword. And we're all praying that the day will come that we'll use the swords not for war but for plowing right, I don't know. The Basuk of the Basuk says, actually tells us that we're going to use those tools that we use for war. We will use them for agriculture in Eretz Yisrael. That would be used in the vines, in the vineyards. So it's really understanding that.

Jay Buchsbaum: 31:43

Yeah, if I may, I remember as a kid demonstrating in front of the UN at Dag Hammarskjöld Plaza, and there's a saying demonstrating in front of the un at god hummus old plaza, and there'sa is it saying it's from, it's from the hillary, you'll beat your swords into plowshares right what challenges did you face when producing the legend series, and was there a moment you thought it might not come together?

Amichai Lourie: 32:09

um, well, because it slowly creeped up on me, so I always knew it was working and it would be okay. I didn't have any doubt. The only thing that didn't really happen as we expected is when we bottled the Legend of Irak. It was right before the war started. 2021, it is right before and, uh, we didn't get a chance because of the war, we didn't get a chance to brand and relabel and everything. So it took a couple of years for us to uh finally introduce it into the market. So it didn't really happen as we planned.

Amichai Lourie: 32:50

I think that the past two years have been very challenging, to say the least, but, like Gabe said, you know I don't have to worry because our wines age well. So if it takes a couple of years until we finally label it, a bottle age well. So if it takes a couple of years until we finally label it in a bottle, it's. You know, patience is something that you learn when you work, when you make wine and when you work in agriculture and edit society. You need a lot of patience and you need a lot of faith. It was worth waiting for.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 33:28

Amichai, I want to move on a little bit onto the concept that you're trying to create the first 100-point wine from Israel.

Amichai Lourie: 33:40

I think I can imagine that a lot of people are working on that, A lot of people are trying to do that.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 33:47

I don't think with the energy that you're doing it.

Amichai Lourie: 33:51

Well, you're right, I've been putting in a lot of energy into trying to do this in the past 10 years. I don't know if Jay remembers, but he was at the winery when I had him taste a few barrel tastings of things that I was trying to get there and still didn't get there. And I remember asking Jay and Jay said to me first you have to understand especially that you're more new world than old world, that it has to be a food bomb off the charts. It's not just complexity, it has to also be there. You have to have something that can carry that fruit for a long time. And then I remember speaking to Gabe about wines like this and you recommended I don't remember, I don't know if you remember Gabe must have been like 10 years ago maybe and said to me Amichai, it's about time you go to Napa and go taste those wines that are getting 100 points. And I actually did that about eight years ago I think it was maybe nine years ago, something like that.

Amichai Lourie: 35:03

I actually took a tour. I went to Napa and I had somebody take me into the back door. That means I didn't go into the visitor center, I went in back and met the winemakers that make these wines that are 100 points, and actually tasted a lot of them and I have to admit that I came back to Israel more confused than when I went there. And it's been a long journey and I've been doing a lot, a lot of hard work in the vineyards, a lot of hard work in the winery. Almost every year I've been scratching the results, you know tasting, letting it age, different options, different things, and then saying almost Not there, but almost there. We even have a code at the winery that certain barrels that we feel that we're getting close, so we started calling it 98, not 100, 98, because we're working on it. It's a work in progress and the first year that I said… you showed me that barrel.

Amichai Lourie: 36:22

I showed you the barrels that say 198, right, we still have those, we're still working on them. But in the 2019 vintage was the first time that I said I think I nailed it and we did a lot, a lot of hard effort of the blending and really separating the men from the boys, Since we also invested in a lot of really high quality barrels for these wines Very, very unique and expensive barrels for it Once we felt that we had the right wine, and from the 2019 vintage, we bottled about 4,000 bottles. And then again 2020, that, in my opinion, was one of the best years for us in Israel and we bottled again close to 4,000 bottles of a wine like this. Unfortunately, 21, 22,.

Amichai Lourie: 37:22

We tried but we felt that we didn't get there, so it was already blended into other wines. Get there. So it was already blended into other wines and we hope for 2023 and maybe 2024 that we'll be able to try it again. In the meantime, we bottled it and we didn't label it, and we've been tasting it, tested it with Motti Herzog both Mottis, California and New York not a long time ago and hopefully next time you come around, you'll be able to taste it with us. Simon, I think you tasted one of the flights that we did right, yes.

Amichai Lourie: 38:05

I think we're very close, very close Okay.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 38:10

Gabriel, I want to ask you a question. When you hear 100-point wine, what does it signify to you personally, both as a critic and a wine lover?

Gabriel Geller: 38:22

It's a great question. So a couple of weeks ago, Jay and I were at the James Suckling Great Wines Award event in New York. The James Suckling Great Wines Award event in New York, which is one of the most prestigious wine tastings in the world, and all the wines there from all over the world. There was one winery from Israel for the very first time Audemont.

Gabriel Geller: 38:53

Audemont, and there are many of the greatest Italian, spanish, french Napa wineries, very great names, and there are over 250 wines there. It's kind of overwhelming because you're like, wow, those are like some of the very best wines in the world from some of the most prestigious wineries. But you cannot taste them all. You know it's impossible, there's no time to get through even you know part of it. So you have to strategize. And I go to such tastings pretty frequently and I was thinking to myself. I was looking at the list of the wines and it said next to each wine what's the James Sucking rating? And I was like you know, it's funny, at any of those tastings I never thought of prioritizing the wines that I should taste based on the rating and I was like I see there is a number of 100 points wines, let's go taste those you know, see what it's all about. And I tasted four or five different wines from different regions and countries with 100 points ratings from James Sucklin and I must say that in my personal opinion, none of these 100-point wines were better than some of the best wines that I've tasted at the event. So I was like they're very good wines for sure. Why did he rate them 100 points. I don't know. I cannot honestly say that in my personal experience and opinion, I find these wines to be better, to be worthy of a higher rating than those others.

Gabriel Geller: 40:55

So I think that it's a very personal thing and, you know, 100 points means perfection. I do not think that such a thing, you know… it's possible. It's like you know they have built, it's like people. You know. There's no such thing as perfect. It doesn't exist. And I think that we have to remember also that it's not just about personal taste. It's also about tasting in the moment who you're tasting with, where are you tasting, what happened during the day? You know when you tasted the wine, what's your mood, what's the weather outside, how long the bells have been up, and there are so many different factors and the exact same wine that one wine critic might rate 95 points today. If he tasted that same wine tomorrow or next week, the rating could be different. It would likely be different, and so I think that's a specific, you know. I think that the difference between a 98 point that's why I like that.

Amichai Lourie: 42:08

That's why we call it 98. You know there's.

Gabriel Geller: 42:14

No, it's not significant. It's not significant. But when you go to 95 or 97, 92 or 94, 98 or 100, it's pretty much the same thing. So it's more about the personal taste of whoever tasted the wine and whatever other external factors came into play. But yeah, you can assume that someone who rates a wine 100 points is in good mood, no matter which one it is.

Amichai Lourie: 42:45

That's why we're calling it 98. In the meantime, you know an internal what we call 98? Because we want to get as close to perfect as possible. You know, I tasted the Yisod wines from Herzog a couple of times and I don't remember which of them, but one of them that I tasted I said to myself wow, this is as close to perfect as can be. There was something about there's nothing missing. You know, maybe I'm not describing. You know, sometimes I think of wine differently, but in my head it's like as close to perfect as it can be and everything that I want in a wine is there, Nothing's missing. So that's what I'm looking for. Maybe I'm not. This is the way I'm describing that. 100 point or as close to possible. Everything I want in a wine is there Everything, Nothing's missing. Can it be better? Maybe, Like you said, nobody's perfect. There's always another layer, but it has to be as close to perfect as can be and that's what we're working on.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 44:08

Jay, I have a question for you, as well as this question that everybody's answering, but I have from your perspective, specifically from a marketing or industry perspective how powerful is the 100-point designation in shaping perception in sales?

Jay Buchsbaum: 44:29

Gone, baby gone. I'll never forget. As a much younger man, I represented non-kosher, some non-kosher wines, talking about, I don't know, 35, 40 years ago, and I I started, of course, at 12.

Jay Buchsbaum: 44:45

That's why obviously the new york times wrote up one of the wines that I represented was called lytton springs Infandel and it was made from 70-year-old vines and et cetera, et cetera, and literally the next day, within a day, it was all sold out. Now it wasn't thousands of cases, but yeah, it's gone, baby gone. I will say there is, you know when, done right. I think the Wine Spectator does it right and some others do it right. I was for three years in a row, maybe four, I don't remember I was asked to be a taster at the Terra Vino and in those days it was managed by OIV, the organization of Inoteca and Vinoteca, which is an international organization that every single wine growing region in the world belongs to, except one, the us. The us is not signed on to oiv, but they actually have a hundred point score on a sheet that gives every component. So, for example, aroma is, let's say, 16 points. So that has to be perfect. And even within aroma there's they still do it like that has to be perfect. And even within aroma there's like they still do it like that. By the way, there's three different breakdowns, you know so when.

Jay Buchsbaum: 46:01

So, when Amichai talks about you know nothing missing what he what, at least to me, it's saying is that every single component and every single sub component, you know, will that give you the pleasure? Every single subcomponent, you know, will that give you the pleasure? I'm not sure, but you know that you get just from drinking the wine with your loved one, like your wife, as Amichai pointed out earlier. I don't know, but I will tell you that you know, the color has to be perfect, and you know. And the aroma has to be perfect on three different levels Initial, you know. Tertiary, blah, blah, blah, and each one if you can score them at the highest points, for each one, you end up with a hundred point score.

Jay Buchsbaum: 46:46

I think that's the and I think it's very real. You know it's very technical and it's not. Oh my gosh, this is so wonderful. Although that's part of it, it really is, I mean, if done right. I think it wonderful. Although that's part of it, it really is. I mean, if done right, I think it can be meaningful, not just from a marketing point of view, like you just asked me, but also from a real point of view.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 47:04

So the question leads to the next thing Do you think that 100-point kosher wine would break into the more mainstream retail spaces?

Jay Buchsbaum: 47:16

Oh, there's no doubt about it. As a matter of fact, it already happened once I don't know if you remember this Many, many years ago, our good friend from Ganyton Wines had the best Cabernet in California, best Cabernet in California, the best Cabernet I think it was 90, could have been 96. I'm not sure, but it was literally the best and it was in the Wine Spectator as the best wine, best Cabernet ever. And, yeah, he crossed over. He completely sold out immediately.

Jay Buchsbaum: 47:54

I think what's more important than whether it can cross over or not is, specifically, when it comes to getting 100.1 for Israel. It'll tell you, it'll tell the consumer, that Israel has arrived, which is everything that the IWPA is trying to do. More importantly than I hate to say this, amichai, more importantly than you benefit, benefiting alone, personally, it will literally, you know, bring attention to the whole israeli. You know thing of making good wines. You know, you don't see, I've never and I don't think we'll ever see a hundred point wine from bulgaria, even though they make some great wines, or from Cyprus or from Hungary or from. I don't think so, but I haven't seen it. I don't recall ever seeing it.

Jay Buchsbaum: 48:49

And I think we can do it from Israel. And if we do it from Israel, it's going to transform perception of Israel, more importantly, not only to the general consumer, but to the buyers and retailers and restaurants. Wow, israel, you know what I better look at? You know some wine by the glass from Israel. If they can make a hundred point wine, they can make a good wine by the glass wine which is 20 bucks or $30 or whatever. That's where I think he asked me about marketing. That's where I think the impact of marketing will be greater than anywhere else.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 49:25

Gabriel question have you ever tasted a wine that you felt should have gotten 100 points but didn't?

Gabriel Geller: 49:32

No, because, again, to go back to what I was saying before, I don't think you can get to 100 points. So have I tasted wines that got a low rating, low-ish rating, that I thought should have gotten a much higher rating? Of course, many times.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 49:57

Is there a wine you ever tasted that left you speechless, that left you like wow?

Gabriel Geller: 50:05

Yeah, a few, a few, Obviously the Pentecane 2003.

Jay Buchsbaum: 50:11

There, you go.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 50:16

You know where? You've got at least three lovers on here of Ponte Cane 2003.

Jay Buchsbaum: 50:20

No, but I think the Cloveau show, that older Cloveau show, remember that one, yep.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 50:26

Yeah.

Jay Buchsbaum: 50:26

It was pretty amazing and I know I'm going to get petched for this, but I think there was a Katsurin 96 that just blew me away 96 Katzrin.

Gabriel Geller: 50:39

To give a concrete example on this topic, and it's upsetting because it's not just about can it get that rating or not, it's more about that. Unfortunately, there's politics involved in some cases, and I'm not going to name the publication that is responsible for that.

Gabriel Geller: 51:00

But nine years ago now, almost nine years ago, jay and I had a lunch together with a very prestigious publication, together with Gilad Flam from Flam Winery, of course, and the wines were great, they're fantastic, and the guy from the publication was like raving about them. And then a few weeks or a few months later, they published the ratings for those wines and they were very disappointing to say the least. Like 87, 88, 89, the ratings for those wines, and they were very disappointing, to say the least, like 87, 88, something like that, 89. Like the way it was rating about it. You're like, wow, I really love this. It's going to give it 93 or 94 or something like that, maybe more 87, 88. And we're like, what the heck? And it's a publication that consistently, you know, first of all, they don't publish very often uh, it's changed for the better, but historically they're not publishing a lot of ratings for israeli wines. But when they were the ratings you know you had here there are 90 points and 91, uh and uh, it didn't go much higher than that.

Gabriel Geller: 52:16

And a few years ago I I was in a meeting with someone who's really in the know, an insider, and that person told me that that publication has it's a policy by them where they decided that Israel as a wide region has not yet crossed the threshold, where, where they decided that Israel as a wine region, has not yet crossed the threshold where they could get a rating higher than 93.

Gabriel Geller: 52:43

So even if you make the best possible wine, a wine that would be deserving from them 100 points or 98, whatever you want to call it, they would not give more than 93, because they decided as a policy that they won't give a higher rating than 93 to wine from that region. And until they change that policy, until they change their mind and think like oh well, by now Israel has gotten better, they have reached the next level, has gotten better, they've reached the next level. Now we can raise that bar and give higher ratings. That's very upsetting, obviously, because I think it's not fair to the wineries, of course, and I also don't think it's fair to the readers and to the consumers the wineries, of course and I also don't think it's fair to the readers and to the consumers. So that exists. I think that in the case of James Suckling, for instance, I don't think that's the case at all.

Gabriel Geller: 53:47

I think that proved quite a few times that they don't have any such preconceptions and that they're being fair with their ratings. But it's not the case everywhere, and I think that it's important to keep that in mind and to know that, because you know like not that Amichai would think this way, but if a winemaker saw his wine getting, you know, 92 points, 90 points, when he thinks that it should be a lot more higher than that, and you don't feel bad about yourself because you're not the problem here, politics and stuff like that are unfortunately often part of the picture and hopefully we'll break those barriers too just one last question to the three of you.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 54:39

Actually, um, I have one more question. I thought to amichai, but to the three of you. Is there a varietal issue with what would be rated at 100 points, like, can you get um a pinot that would be rated at 100, or does it have to be a cab? Does it have to be bold and robust or does it not make a difference?

Jay Buchsbaum: 55:04

Listen, cloveau Joe is a Pinot, okay, and it was big and rich and flavorful, not as opulent and in your face, but yeah, clove of Joe can easily get you know some great white red burgundies can easily be of that richer, flavorful category without being you know not your face.

Jay Buchsbaum: 55:25

You're right, and yes, they can get hundreds, I think yeah. Also, there's Barbarescos and Barolos and certainly Bordeaux's, which are blends that easily could and have gotten 100 points. Yes, there is a trend amongst some of the American public not some most American publications to give big 100 pointers to California cabs, harlins, etc. I will, by the way. I just want to want to comment you know wines that blew you away.

Jay Buchsbaum: 56:00

You asked earlier I just want to comment on this. I mentioned some of the big boys, but I got pretty close to that and I don't know if anybody agrees with me on this, but everybody knows how I feel about this. On a lot of the alexander valleys 94 well, you and I um simon, yeah, 94 in 2004 and etc, etc. That have been just wow, like crazy. And they're not that expensive 40, 50 retail. So it doesn't always have to be in something like, uh, you know, clove or even a ponte canae could be in something less expensive too.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 56:34

A 94,. I think it was the 94.

Jay Buchsbaum: 56:40

Alex or Chalk Hill.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 56:42

Chalk Hill, the 94 Chalk Hill, just I mean it stays. There's a few wines like Pentecunet 03, but that one as well also stays in my mind. And there's also Katsrin 07. That was also crazy, for me at least. So a bunch of them. And plus 2007 that I opened Avamichai's Petit Syrah a few years ago. That also just totally blew me away.

Gabriel Geller: 57:19

So okay, the 2006 and 2010,. Actually Mosaic. Yeah, it was very, very special and also that's a different story. You know, before Amichai made Shiloh wine, he also made wines at home and I had some of his story. You know, before Amichai made Shiloh wine, he also made wines at home and I had some of his 2002, you know homemade wines and they were incredible.

Jay Buchsbaum: 57:46

Really.

Gabriel Geller: 57:47

Yeah, really.

Jay Buchsbaum: 57:47

You still got any left.

Amichai Lourie: 57:48

Amichai Very few bottles.

Jay Buchsbaum: 57:52

Next time I come, are you going to pop one for me?

Solomon Simon Jacob: 57:54

Next time we've got to get a bunch of us together and go and do that, yeah, we'll make it happen.

Amichai Lourie: 58:00

Time to come visit.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 58:01

Amichai, speaking of visit, I just want to bounce off of you. You just opened your visitor center. What's there for people to see? Is it worth them coming out to Shiloh? That's a loaded question, because I've been there and I've been there at an event and it was amazing.

Amichai Lourie: 58:25

But please, I want to at least give you the opportunity to talk about it. So, the visitor center the idea was when Meir Shomer started the winery. He said listen, we're going to invest whatever we can to make the best wines we can, but comfort in a facility, in a visitor center, that will wait until after we make great wines and unfortunately, you know, it took many more years than we expected but finally, for the 2023 vintage, right before the war, we moved into the new facility. We built this state-of-the-art winery to make the best wines we can.

Amichai Lourie: 59:08

You have to see it to even great winemakers and winery owners see the place that we built when it comes to efficiency and to make the best wines we can. We made it happen. And also, baruch Hashem, we built a new visitor center. You amazing ambience to enjoy wine, overlooking the vineyards, were right on top of the vineyards and also from the visitor center you can actually walk on top in a special catwalk on top, inside the barrel room and inside the big room of all the tanks and vats where we ferment. So you basically can feel, smell and hear everything that's happening in the winery and in the barrel room and also enjoy wine in an amazing atmosphere.

Amichai Lourie: 1:00:09

Unfortunately, we opened up in the worst time possible in the history of Israel. We moved in in August for the 2023 vintage and before we were supposed to open up the visitor center for Hanukkah in November, but obviously on Simchat Torah, october 7th, everything changed. So it took us some time until we opened the visitor center and even now, everything is like very toned down the team at the winery when the war started, we were left two people to do the work of 15. Everybody in the army Even now I have a lot of my staff are still in the army. Even now, I have a lot of my staff are still in the army.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:01:00

Uh, one guy just came back today and uh, so we're hoping he's gonna stay I just want to tell you though, amichai, you're being very modest because a few weeks ago, ralpheb Dr Medeb had his son's bar mitzvah in the winery in the visitor center, and it was absolutely great, and he also— I'll tell you something amazing about that guy.

Amichai Lourie: 1:01:28

I have to interrupt you.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:01:29

Yeah, no, go ahead.

Amichai Lourie: 1:01:31

He insisted that we invite soldiers to his son's bar mitzvah. I think his guests were like 30, 40 people. The whole event right.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:01:44

Yeah, because they couldn't get in.

Amichai Lourie: 1:01:45

They couldn't get in on the flights he said could you invite a unit from nearby that can come, from nearby, that can come. So we approached one unit that was stationed nearby for about 40 people and then at the last minute they said they couldn't come. So we approached another unit nearby and most of them couldn't. And then there was one unit that said, yeah, we're about to exit, so they had like an overlap. I said, okay, they can come. And then at the last minute both units came. The other unit said, okay, you know, I can come. At the last minute he said, okay, you know, whoever Misha ba ba ba ba. So he like invited everybody. So there were like twice as much soldiers than his guests and it made the simcha was like over the charts.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:02:38

It was. It was off the charts.

Amichai Lourie: 1:02:40

There were more people. There were twice as many people in uniform than with their guns on them and everything you know than guests, and I think the Simcha was like unbelievable, it was amazing.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:02:56

So I just I wanted to say thank you very much to each of you. I know you guys are still working, some of us are. It's already almost 8 o'clock at night, so we're about to well, we're still working, but we're about to kick off from the normal stuff. But, thank you, thank you very much for all of you being on The Kosher Terroir. Todah, todah Rabbah.

Amichai Lourie: 1:03:17

Thank you very much. Thank you for having us L'chaim.

Solomon Simon Jacob: 1:03:21

L'chaim tovim shalom. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. Bye-bye, bye, bye. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.