S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. If you joined us for Part 1 of our conversation with Assaf Paz at Vidkin Winery, you already know the story behind the wines, the bold varietals, the resilient terroir and the winemaker who's been redefining Israeli wine for over two decades. But now, in part two, we shift instead from the vineyard to the glass. Of course, I can't pour you a tasting flight through your headphones, but I promise you this you'll hear wine the way Assaf sees it.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:04

This episode is a masterclass in narrative tasting, where every bottle becomes a character, every sip unlocks a story. Asaf's voice brings flavor to life, from sun-drenched Grenache to brooding Carignan, with descriptions so vivid. You'll feel like you're right there beside him, swirling, sniffing and savoring. If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're home, please settle in, open your senses and join us for a unique journey through Vitkin's portfolio, as told by the man who crafted it. This is part two of our conversation with Assaf Paz and, trust me, it's far too delicious to skip.

Assaf Paz: 1:52

Thank you very much for inviting me to come to Vitken, so I just call you Yossie, to bring us some samples. Good, we'll do it.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:00

So we're going to taste some stuff. Yeah, of course, this potato is amazing.

Assaf Paz: 2:05

It's a potato salad. I called it the Russian salad.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:07

I know it is, but it's really amazing. It's definitely a Russian who made it.

Assaf Paz: 2:11

Yeah, this is nice. This is tuna salad and vegetables for the conscience. This is chirchi. This is Chirchi. You know, it's a triple-tie dip from squash and pink sweet potatoes and spices.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:32

Yep. So what are we tasting? Let's start. Are you going to keep?

Assaf Paz: 2:37

it secret?

S. Simon Jacob: 2:42

No, no, this is first, second what?

Assaf Paz: 2:50

beautiful color. These are yeah. So the first trio is very simple. We're going from lighter to heavier. So the first one, pinot Noir. As you can see the color Wow, light in the color, like sour cherries, very intense in the nose, very aromatic.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:13

Wow, it's super intense. It's just I could smell this all day.

Assaf Paz: 3:18

Pinot Noir is not a variety to plant in Israel. If somebody asks me what to plant, it won't be in my first 20. Really yeah. If somebody asks me what to plant, it won't be in my first 20. Really yeah. But there are a few terroirs very, very small, you know acres, very little acres in Israel that you can plant Pinot Noir, and it could give successful and delicious wine. Ours is in Elah Valley near Givat Isha Yahu. It's a place that has a lot of cool, you know air coming from the river, from the stream bed no, the other way.

Assaf Paz: 3:57

From the top of the mountain, the cool air goes down, so it goes down, the stream goes down the river and, you know, giving this night and day a big difference.

Assaf Paz: 4:09

That keeps nice acidity and nice aromas, typical aromas of Pinot Noir. That's really hard to achieve in a hot climate like Israel. So I learned how to make Pinot Noir in a few places, first and foremost in Northern California. I say Northern California because it's not a N make Pinot Noir in a few places, first and foremost in Northern California. I say Northern California because it's not a Napa Pinot Noir nor a Sonoma, it's a Mendocino, anderson Valley, very cool climate region, very delicate Pinot Noir. So I always say it's like a lady that doesn't need a lot of makeup. It's like a lady that doesn't need a lot of makeup.

Assaf Paz: 4:48

You don't need to overmature it over, put it too long in the skins, too much new barrel or too long in the barrel and so on. So don't over it. You need to let the fruit shine. And here the fruit is delicate but it could be very intense and beautiful and if you don't overcome it with other exterior factors, you get a lovely Pinot Noir. So I try to basically the secret of my wine, my winemaking methods here series, taking down my ego, understanding that what they get from the fruit is amazing. Don't touch it. Learn how to preserve it and let it shine, but don't cover it too much. What do you think?

S. Simon Jacob: 5:41

this is so varietally correct as a Pinot.

Assaf Paz: 5:45

It's just amazing you know I tasted a lot of Pinot. The second place that helped me craft my Pinot approach is Germany. So in Germany in the last decade, they're making amazing Pinot Noir. Last decade they're making amazing Pinot Noir. Maybe it got a little bit warmer so it's easier for them to get the maturity, but they have, especially our twin winery in the Fals, making some outstanding Pinot Noirs.

Assaf Paz: 6:19

And everybody's looking to Bourgogne, burgundy. We don't have the terroir of Burgundy, to Bourgogne, burgundy, yeah, we don't have the terroir of Burgundy. And in Burgundy sometimes they have the classics of Burgundy that you cannot argue with. But sometimes they're captive of the high scores, like Bordeaux 20 years ago. And I like to, when I want to see the transparent Pinot and to learn about the variety itself, want to see the transparent Pinot and to learn about the variety itself and not the specific terroir I want to go to because, absolutely, burgundy have the best terroir for the Pinot Noir in the world, but I think that from the whole planet it didn't fail only in Burgundy. You know there are other places too, but it will take time to find them, with a lot of hard work, like they did in many centuries in Burgundy. What year is this? 2024.

Assaf Paz: 7:15

This is 2024?.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:16

It's so drinkable. This is unbelievable. Yeah, it's so drinkable, so it's a little bit more than half a year.

Assaf Paz: 7:25

No, no, it's not bottled yet. It will be bottled before the harvest. That means that it will be around 10 months to max 11 months in the barrel before bottling, and that's how I want it. Now you go to the second wine. I won't tell you the variety, but it's very intriguing. It looks like a cousin of the Pinot Noir. It does Because, first of all, in the color it's very light and bright and a beautiful red, bright color. In the nose you can feel so much aromatics, from strawberries to fresh prunes, not the jammy ones, the round the Japanese one Floral even.

Assaf Paz: 8:15

You know sour cherries, very reddish nose, but the floral is outstanding here and even a little bit gamey Like sausage or something you know.

S. Simon Jacob: 8:35

You're right.

Assaf Paz: 8:40

But, unlike the Pinot Noir, the mouthfeel here is slightly different. It's more especially the after. You know the aftertaste, yeah, the finish. Yeah, it's more juicy, more voluptuous more you know the aftertaste, yeah, the finish. Yeah, it's more juicy, more voluptuous, more you know wow. So this is.

S. Simon Jacob: 8:58

Grenache Noir I was gonna.

Assaf Paz: 9:00

I'm trying to figure out what, what varietal this is so Grenache Noir, you can, you, it's so flexible if you take the Grenache of Priorat or old vine. Flexible if you take the Grenache of Priorat or old wine, spanish Grenache, even from the Rioja or from some places in South of France, you can find black wines, very intensive, high in alcohol, very jammy, spicy. But if you go to other places you can find this Grenache which is lighter but not less intense in the flavors and aromas but gives you a completely different character. I call Grenache Noire the Pinot of the Mediterranean. It's well adapted to the climate, it's perfect.

Assaf Paz: 9:49

The maturity of this grape is perfect. You get it in the most amazing pH level. The acidity level are so correct that you don't need to adjust, you don't need to correct anything. You had the most delicious aromas even in lower alcohol potential. So the wines are basically between 13 and 13.5 alcohol. The finished wines, and again here, I keep it in the barrel less than one year because it doesn't need too much and I keep the quality. Elichai shapo ala potato salad ala kartoshke.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:32

Wow, wow, wow, it's really good.

Assaf Paz: 10:39

Where are you from?

S. Simon Jacob: 10:40

originally. Originally. My grandma is from Turkey, from Turkey, okay. And mayonnaise came after they came to Israel.

Assaf Paz: 10:52

He did it. This is a nice adaptation.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:57

It's amazing, it's really good.

Assaf Paz: 10:59

And he eats in the best restaurant.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:02

I eat all over, but Baruch Hashem, baruch Hashem. So this is the Grenache Noir. You know I really want to taste your Pinot from last year Because I don't remember it. You will. I don't remember it smelling or tasting anything like this. This is.

Assaf Paz: 11:27

When it's in the barrel it's much more expressive, and when, with bottle, it's closing and then little by little it's in the barrel, it's much more expressive, and when, with bottle, it's closing and then little by little, it's opening. So if you taste, you know, from kosher in the kosher prism you can taste the 2015 and 2016 and see what they give today.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:49

that's fascinating this is crazy. The Grenache is good, but this is crazy exceptional.

Assaf Paz: 11:59

This is much more spicy. It's one of the building blocks of the Red Israeli Journey. It's basically Carignan and some Grenache. It needs to get more Carignan, some Grenache. It needs to get more Carignan, more intense Carignan. And oh, wait a minute, maybe this will help. Look at the color. The color is purple. This is much. This is like more woody portion, because this is not the final blend. It's different parts of the blend that we're testing. So now it's more, less drinkable. You know, you feel the tannins. You want to know the variety or not yet, not yet Very aromatic notes.

S. Simon Jacob: 12:49

It has some warm spices, you know, like ginger anise minty, it's funny because I know you don't have a zinfandel, but this is almost like a zinfandel like the candy like yeah, yeah I always think of it as crushed berries.

Assaf Paz: 13:14

We call them in Hebrew, perotiar.

S. Simon Jacob: 13:18

Yes, this is Argaman.

Assaf Paz: 13:24

Oh, wow, Argaman, but from the north of Israel, from 2024. This is beautifully made argamanad. Yeah, it's like it's three or four varieties. Yesterday I spoke with a young Somm. He's like a kind of my protege, because I know him from the day he started work as a waiter and he was very interested in wine and he worked for me as well and he's now he's like starting to be a superstar in the restaurants of tel aviv and we stopped, we talked about, we said something about Argaman, not not connected to my wines, but in general. I said he told me this is a variety that need to be extinct. I said why? I said no, because it gives nothing, only blends. I said, okay, you're very young.

Assaf Paz: 14:12

Never, ever, say what you said right now. I love you, I appreciate you. This is a big, big no-no, never talk like that. Even when people ask me what do I think about orange wine, which I I don't, personally don't like, but I I don't like you know they are horrible I always say something like I haven't tried yet. I haven't tried yet the orange wine that I liked. Because this is the truth, this is how I put it.

S. Simon Jacob: 14:47

You know what you have to do In order to enjoy orange wine. You have to drink it with like Chinese food, wow, crazy Chinese food. Okay, super spicy, super flavorful. You drink orange wine with that your mouth explodes Cold or room temperature. Or.

Assaf Paz: 15:16

I try Room temperature yeah, Room temperature yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 15:18

But it could be cold as well, okay, but it makes such a difference. It's incredible. Okay, I will try it. Okay, it'll make a huge difference to your appreciation of orange wine, okay.

Assaf Paz: 15:30

Wings, crazy wings, very, very succulent, very oily. Okay, okay I will. Talia loves Chinese. We tried, so I told him. You know, I will give you to taste the Argoman that I have in barrels, from two different reasons, from two different genes, I told this young sommelier but never said that. Because, first of all, this is an Israeli variety, so we need to try to do something with it and, secondly, you haven't tried so much yet. You need to be open.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:04

That Argoman is great. Yeah, it's elegant. You know something? Yeah, it's elegant, you know something. Argoman has a tendency to be like hit you over the head a little bit, because it has an amazing color.

Assaf Paz: 16:21

It has amazing acidity. I'll tell you what this smells more like an Argoman. This is another Argoman, but from a different region, lower land. The other one was from a higher altitude.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:36

But this also is an argaman. That's very, very elegant.

Assaf Paz: 16:40

Elegant and approachable, and it's like taking a wild beast and taming it.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:46

It is, it's definitely. This is super pleasant, wow, super super pleasant. So um, these are also. These are all 2024s.

Assaf Paz: 17:06

Yeah, I think that you asked me about the local indigenous varieties and I told you that, in my opinion, this is something that you asked me about the local indigenous varieties and I told you that, in my opinion, this is something that you can incorporate in the podcast, right? So I think that our local varieties is an amazing R&B for the future, but you need to give it time. You need to give it 10 years, 15 years, maybe longer, I don't know, maybe shorter, a while, but in the mid, in the meanwhile, we have so much things to work on that are already in place, that are giving yields like the, the carinian, and like the argaman and like other varieties and that you know, columb Colombar. It's an amazing variety that I think will show more and more potential through the experiments and the years. We're making amazing wines from the Colombar.

Assaf Paz: 18:05

In the last 25 years since the first year of Vitkin maybe, and it basically went into a journey, the wine journey, and it's the base of the wine journey, the secret maybe of the wine journey we tasted the 2023 Argaman and now I'm going to give you something else from 2023. This is eclectic. It's not taking from here and there.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:36

So wait a second. This is highly minty. This is a 23?.

Assaf Paz: 18:38

Yeah, okay, the first one was 2024. It's crazy.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:47

It's crazy. Whatever you did to produce that, it's amazing. This is also beautiful.

Assaf Paz: 18:54

A lot of TLC. Wow, this is so.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:59

chocolate, mint you know, dark chocolate and mint and blueberries and cherries and some pomegranate, so this is tanat and tanat is, so I have never tasted a Tanat like this. The tanats that I've tasted are so and so tannic, tannic and so just harsh. This is like you can enjoy it. It's more than enjoying.

Assaf Paz: 19:33

It's unbelievable. So Tanat, you know the region of Tanat in France, Madiran, is the place where they invented the technique of micro-oxygenation. Micro-oxygenation is to imitate a little bit what's happening in the barrel, to soften the tannic structure of the wine and also to stabilize the color, Because when you have slightly oxidative, very gentle oxidative state the colors are combining with the tannins, they're making a very stable form of the color that don't drop through time, when you do it correctly and you don't over-oxidize the wine.

Assaf Paz: 20:13

If you don't over-oxidize the wine, you lose everything. Does this mean you bubble oxygen through?

S. Simon Jacob: 20:18

it.

Assaf Paz: 20:18

Yeah, but very. Imagine that in the bottom of the tank you have the sparger yeah, Okay, and the bubbles are so tiny that until the time they're reaching the top of the tank you don't see them anymore. They are dissolving completely into the liquid and you do it in very small doses. You're giving, for example, one minute of oxidation and then you wait for one day or a couple of hours, and everybody it depends on the volume of the tank and you do it just to give some oxygen to the compounds and then don't give too much so the wine won't be oxidized.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:59

Aren't people trying to do that sort of thing with amphoras today To get that micro-oxidization?

Assaf Paz: 21:06

Yeah, this is one of the rationalals of using an amphora. An amphora, but it depends on the material.

S. Simon Jacob: 21:16

I've never tasted a tzinaat like this, ever. This is also. This is a 23 or 24? 23. 23, so this is.

Assaf Paz: 21:23

This is it's bottled right, it's very memorable. Look at the color. It's very memorable. Look at the color, it's just beautiful. This is almost 50 year old Petits Syrah vines. Really, this is vintage 2023. Look how intense it is. It's already 18, maybe 20 months in the barrel. So juicy, amazing structure, yet very soft, almost elegant, and you have this smitty character that you find sometimes in Syrah.

Assaf Paz: 22:22

It's going to age beautifully. Let's taste some Carignan. Let's taste three Carignan wines. Okay, this is call it Carignan 51, because it's the age of the vines. Wow, very distinct character.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:52

Nice, nice, nice. This is like the definition of juicy. Yeah, I wanted to say juicy.

Assaf Paz: 23:05

That's the definition, the definition of juicy. Wow, could be the name of the wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:19

Yeah.

Assaf Paz: 23:20

So you can keep it in the glass. The recent term? So this is the same, the same carignan, but from another plot, completely different, totally different. Very intense in the color, very intense in the like, plummy, you know more black character.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:00

This tasting, the definition of this tasting is really journey. Wow, yeah, it really is, it's going.

Assaf Paz: 24:07

I absolutely agree with you. So don't lose those and the third glass I will give you. We're jumping into 2024. So it's a different vintage, but this is the Carignan for 2024?

S. Simon Jacob: 24:27

Yeah, taste it, taste it a little no it's okay, but it's a.

Assaf Paz: 24:34

This one is I call it har like mountain. It's not a mountain, it's a very small mountain, but it's so, you know, gravelly and stony. Yeah, very, very mineral. What a great description Very mineral, very stony. I don't know if I have the picture.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:59

I can smell the pebbles. It's like crazy. I don't know how I can do that.

Assaf Paz: 25:05

No, it's crazy. You know this one. I will look for the picture. It's not old vine, it's not too young vine, but I think 15 years old. But the terroir is so amazing. I'm so looking forward to to get you know more, more fruit out of it.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:37

Wow, that's really not fair that that pinot tastes like that when it's in the barrel it's all ready to drink, right, it's so perfect. I also think the best rosés I've ever tasted are the ones coming out of the steel that are cold or just crazy. The best rosés I've ever tasted are the ones coming out of the steel yeah, that are cold. Yeah, yeah, they are just crazy, especially when they've got bubbles, especially when they're not clarified yet.

Assaf Paz: 26:05

Yeah, they are raw, you know. Check this out. Wow, look at the terroir, look at the bunches black and you see the berries, small berries, on the shade. It's perfect. Look and, as you said, you feel the minerality.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:32

Yeah, I'll send you this picture Wow.

Assaf Paz: 26:38

So this is the Pinot 2023.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:42

Okay.

Assaf Paz: 26:44

You'll see that it's the 2024 was a little more open because it was in the barrel and it's always like that, but this shows you a very nice consistency in the profile of the wine. I'm I'm sure that in a blind date you will recognize it wait a second.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:02

Yeah, can you give me the 24 again, do you have?

Assaf Paz: 27:04

any left. Yes, maybe it's a little bit warmer now.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:11

Yeah, no. The perception is a little bit 24, pinot is just so.

Assaf Paz: 27:20

You will. You probably want to take a barrel with you home.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:24

Yeah, I know.

Assaf Paz: 27:27

It's crazy.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:28

It's just absolutely a crazy Pinot. It's what people have always told me Pinot can be and, to be honest, I've never really tasted it.

Assaf Paz: 27:39

Yeah, because Pinot have a lot of myth.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:41

Yeah.

Assaf Paz: 27:41

Lots of history, and sometimes you take some and you taste. So are you ready? I'm ready. Wow, we haven't tasted any white, by the way I know, may after. Wow, we haven't tasted any white, by the way, I know, after you know what, we'll taste one white. This is. I made a barrel for a friend who's selling wine. It's like the Netflix of the wine. Cool, no, spotify of the wine. Who is it? Yair Haidoo? Oh, yeah, yair sure. So cheers, this is cheers. It's called that Jazz. Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:26

He's a wine writer, a connoisseur, yeah, but he Elal used to use him to write the whole write-up about him.

Assaf Paz: 28:39

This is a variety that I never made before. What is this? It's a Chardonnay. It's a Chardonnay. I never made a Chardonnay. And he challenged me. He told me you never made a Chardonnay. I never made a Chardonnay. And he challenged me. He told me you never made a Chardonnay. I know it's not your thing, but I always wanted to see how Chardonnay is going to come up in your hands, so I made it. It's 2020. It's five years old, wow. So he told me you made me a Chardonnay exactly like I wanted, like in the Grand Terroir of the Burgundy, you know, montrachet or Morceau, with a lot of freshness and elegance, but a lot of body and weight as well. I took the Terroir it's coming from a very close vineyard in Meron-Golan 1,000 meters of altitude and amazing Chardonnay and I don't make a Chardonnay, but the grapes are so amazing and the guy wanted me to make a wine of Chardonnay, so I you know.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:44

I surrendered. Noam Osler said. Noam Osler said Merom, golan, yeah, yeah yeah, yes, you, yeah, she's amazing. Have you made?

Assaf Paz: 29:51

a podcast with her.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:52

Yes, I did. I hadn't listened, she saved the Israel wine industry.

Assaf Paz: 29:59

Yeah, with the viruses, I know. Can you send me the podcast? Sure, I'll send you the link for that I like to listen to your podcast while I'm driving?

S. Simon Jacob: 30:08

Yeah, no that's why I don't put video into them, Because people dogs. They do everything and you said if you're driving, pay attention to the road.

Assaf Paz: 30:17

It's nice. It's nice, that's amazing. That's amazing. You sell this. No, I didn't. And then I told him you know what? He had some hard time and chills and I saw that the sales are going down. I told him you know what? I'll be more than happy to keep some for myself, because every time somebody came to ask me for this wine, I tell you you buy it from Yair. And then I told him I grabbed like 200 bottles and I kept it. We have only half of it left and we sell it mainly on Fridays when people are coming and want something special. You open one bottle for tasting and then it flies out the windows. So this is a Chardonnay that it's like I made.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:04

Chardonnay for myself. I know this is a Chardonnay that is unlike any other Chardonnay that I've ever tasted. It's not buttery, it's not all the rest of it, it's like a delicious white, exactly.

Assaf Paz: 31:18

It's an amazing variety, but people are overdoing it, like they do with so many others. So this is. I wanted to taste something that we unusual that we currently have for a very short time. It's an amazing bottle. Yeah, see, I know, and and the text is a is unbelievable. He wrote it.

Assaf Paz: 31:41

He wrote the text said after years, that soft pass from vitkin played in Mediterranean instruments yes it was obvious that, when time comes, he will convince to make his very high standards, his very high performance, with the highest standard, one of the highest standards in the world, which is the Chardonnay, no other than the Chardonnay. And this that's how this creation was made. He wrote it as a music piece, right? So it's like a collector's item. I will keep you for myself. I kept the three first balls from the line because they are numbered Right. So one, two, three I kept to myself. It was the second harvest. The first one in 2018 and 2020 was the second, and I kept it for myself. Wow. So you're ready, I'm ready.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:00

This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. No matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Your safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.