S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome back to The Kosher Terroir, the podcast, where we journey through landscapes, legends, rugged and breathtaking. Mountainous settlement near Geva Benyamin, just outside of Jerusalem, perched above steep drops into the Jordan Valley. This dramatic terrain is home to Gilad Winery, a boutique gem producing wines as elegant and nuanced as the land itself. Peak gem producing wines as elegant and nuanced as the land itself.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:11

We're joined by Chaim Sackton, the owner and winemaker behind Gilad Winery. With a background in hands-on viticulture and a deep reverence for the Mediterranean climate, Chaim crafts lighter, more approachable wines that are perfect for this sun-drenched terroir. Adding to this journey is Itzhak Stern, one of Israel's most beloved wine tour guides. Together, we step into the barrel room and sip through a collection of elegant, terroir-driven wines that define kosher Mediterranean style. This isn't just the tasting. It's a story of vision, place and passion all poured into every bottle. If you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're relaxing at home, please uncork something fresh and join us as we explore this boutique winery known as Gilad.

Chaim Sackton: 2:07

Gilad Winery is. We're located here in Yishuv Seneh. We're on the border of the desert and the view looking east is Shevet Reuven is the Gilad Mountain region.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:21

That was the first question I had for you. It's such an important name. How did you pick it for the winery and why so?

Chaim Sackton: 2:28

when I was looking for a name, and I was looking for a short name that works in English and represents biblical and Israeli wine. I'm not looking to be an American. I started off actually with my last name, Sackton. Sackton Winery, right, but it's just too American.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:46

That's what.

Chaim Sackton: 2:47

I thought it's just too American. Okay, I walk out. You know drinking my coffee in the morning, looking outside on the view and I see Gilad.

Chaim Sackton: 2:55

Mountains, right. And I'm saying wait a second, this is Gilad and Gilad is a beautiful name, right? So that's what. It is very cool. Now, the name Midbah basically all my wines I took the names biblical names from the Gilad region. So the first series, we're talking about Midbah. There's an Arab town that still exists till today. It's called Nadaba. It's in Jordan and it's brought down and saved for Midbah and they went to Midba. So there is a biblical city there. There's a famous map that they found in Midba, mosaic, the Mosaic map, the most antique map of Jerusalem, basically Wow. So that's one of my ideas are to put a map one day on the Midba series. But it's kind of mosaic, it doesn't fit the modern look, but somehow I'll have to fit it in.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:52

Tell me the first series. What does it include? It includes a shenan.

Chaim Sackton: 3:56

It includes a Chenin Blanc rosé and a blend of GSM. Okay, so the rosé is made out of what the rosé is made out of Merlot, straight Merlot. Okay, I got the grapes from Har Bracha. I have a vineyard over there. I buy my grapes. Most of my grapes I've been buying from this area, in the area over here. This is a vineyard in Har Bracha that has very high acidity. Okay, so it fits for rosé. I've been making rosé out of a Merlot for a couple years. We're very happy with it. And Be'ezrat Hashem will continue. And the last one.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:33

The next one is a red wine, a GSM.

Chaim Sackton: 4:38

It's a light wine. It's very nice. The grapes are actually not from this area. They're from up north, from the Galil. What should I say about it?

S. Simon Jacob: 4:48

It's a real Grenache, Syrah, Morvedrah, yes, okay.

Chaim Sackton: 4:52

Yes, the percentages are more Grenache and Syrah less. I mean more Grenache, more Mourvèdre as a drop of Syrah. Okay, it's basically a Grenache I love.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:05

Grenache-heavy wines. I love wines that have a lot of Grenache because they're very light and they're just beautiful.

Chaim Sackton: 5:12

So you'll like this wine. It's almost a rosé and the taste I mean it's a red wine and it has the qualities of red wine, but it's very light. I pushed it a lot before Leila Seder for people that have a hard time drinking heavy wines The 4Cups, and it worked.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:35

So what's the alcohol level? 13. It's 13. Okay, it's 13. Okay.

Chaim Sackton: 5:38

Cool. It's not always about the alcohol level. It's about the soaking of the grapes, and Grenache is a grape, so it doesn't have to be. It's not about the alcohol level. Usually, when you have high alcohol, it means the grapes were harvested later, but not always Grenache is one of my favorite varietals. Okay, so I'm happy I have it. It's the first GSM I ever made.

S. Simon Jacob: 6:02

This next level. How many levels are there? Four. This next level. How many levels are there? There's four, four okay.

Chaim Sackton: 6:08

The next one is called Nachal Yabok. Nachal Yabok is the border of Gilad and Bashan. Obviously we still have that Nachal today. We have Yaakov Avinu. We know he passed in Ma'aval Yabok, so it's a famous name In the series of Nachi Yabok. I have a straight cab and I have a blend, a blend Bordeaux, it's Cab Merlot, P etit, Bordeaux, cool. So these two are just a little. I would say. You know, more of a wine, red wine, full body has, I would say in Hebrew, more nachachut.

Itzak Stern: 6:50

So that's the nachachut Presence I was going to say presence.

Chaim Sackton: 6:53

Okay, yes, cool. And these are aged. Also, the first series, the Midbah, is aged for 12 months. The red wine, these are aged for 14 months. Age of Do Age of Niel Ros red wine, these are aged for 14 months. Aged, how long? Aged? Aged an hour, oh, rosé and the white are 2024. So these are not aged in barrels at all, okay, but the GSM is the GSM is aged for 12 months. Yeah, the Nachal Ebrok is aged for 14 months.

Chaim Sackton: 7:19

Okay, the next one is these two I have something called Betzer, so a series of the name Betzer is a little bit deeper. Because you don't have it, you're not going to find a name Betzer today in the Gilad region. Yep, because it doesn't. I mean, it's an ancient name, it's brought down in Sefer Bamidbar is Betzer Bamidbar. It was in Ir Miklat. Okay, oh wow, so it was an Ir Levim that they went to.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:54

It was appropriate with the Dafyomi. We just went through all of Ir Miklat.

Chaim Sackton: 8:00

So you had Betzer Bamidbar. Yeah, so Betzer is I looked it up basically where it's located. It's more to the right, it's on top of the Dead Sea, like Nach Leibok is all the way up north, I would say the furthest part of Gilad. So Betzel is more on the south side of Gilad region. Okay, so that's another name I took from Gilad.

Chaim Sackton: 8:32

The next wine is something out of the box. If you look at the label, it's also totally different. Yeah, I made a wine over here and usually I make a wine. All these wines are 20. I mean, this is 2023. This is 2021, and I'm coming out with my 23s very soon. Yes, because the Betzer is aged for 18 months in a barrel. Okay, so I still have the 2023 still in the barrel. I'm about to bottle it.

Chaim Sackton: 9:03

22 you didn't do at all. 22, I didn't make wine. So the Heritage was a wine that I made and I wouldn't say it didn't come out good. But after I aged it, the grapes were very good and I aged it for two years in a barrel and after tasting it after two years, the barrel was just too much and I couldn't the value of what I invested in the wine. I could not sell it for the price I wanted to sell it for, okay. So I continued to age it for another two years until I felt it was worth to sell it. Yeah, and then I went to a graphic artist and I asked them to just give me something out of the box, nothing to do with my winery, something you know like on top of everything. So I came up with the name Heritage. So that's it, and it's a blend of Cab and Petit Verdot, 24 months in a barrel. Not only in a barrel, it's actually in new barrels. So it's a very high investment and I'm very proud of the product.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:12

So, at the end of all of it, this is almost like the flagship of what you do. This is my flagship, this is your flagship.

Chaim Sackton: 10:19

Yes, I didn't come out with Heritage since 19. Okay, I mean, we went through 20, 21, 22, I didn't make one 23,. I didn't make 2024,. I have enough quality wine that I could come out with another heritage, heritage. Okay, it's all about quality. Okay, that's what it's about. So that's why you weren't happy with it before. I wasn't happy with it, not because it was not a good wine. I wasn't happy with it because the quality was so high and I could tell by the grape what type of wine I'm going to get Over here. I knew I'm going to get a 300-shekel bottle of wine Right After two years in the bottle it tastes to me like a 100-shekel bottle of wine. Okay, and that was my problem.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:02

It wasn't approachable After two years in the barrel.

Chaim Sackton: 11:11

After two years it was. I can't really explain in words what it was. It's hard to explain. I don't know what it was. It was just the flavors were too mellow, the barrel took over, it was very, very woody and you couldn't taste the fruit. And then, two years more Two years more in the bottle changed the form of the wine to a whole different world.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:33

So I've heard that in the barrel as well. I've heard that in the barrel as well that even if you leave it in the barrel, give it more, it ends up flipping. That Interesting.

Chaim Sackton: 11:47

So the truth is, I mean I brought a winemaker after a year that was in the barrel Because it was new barrels, the whole thing. Usually I don't do in all these series, I don't do everything new barrels. I do a third of new barrels, the rest of used ones. That's not even you's a, it's a normal thing. Now this was a very high investment and I put 24 new barrels and I brought a winemaker. I told him the wine tastes like wood and there's such a thing, you know there's really. It's like tamina gharia. It's like a carpenter, like too much, like why, why to do that? And I was like it tastes like wood and he's like it's going to calm. And he's like it's going to calm down. Put it for another year. It's going to calm down even more. It didn't make sense, I know, but it does. It's crazy.

S. Simon Jacob: 12:35

It took another two years. So it wasn't in the bottle, it was actually in the barrel. You left it for four years.

Chaim Sackton: 12:41

No, I bottled it after two years. After two years I decided it's going to bottling. After the bottling, I wait a month, two months, bottling shock, and then I see the wine is not proving itself and it's just not worth it. So you just left it. So I just left it, cool, I kept it in storage and it took me a long time to, you know, come up with a name, label and the whole thing. Now it also has a nice box. So it took, besides the time that I had to wait, it took two years and then another couple of months and baruch hashan now it's out on the market. So you feel very happy about this one. Yes, I'm happy. I mean, I'm happy with all of them. No, I know.

S. Simon Jacob: 13:19

I know, I know I get it. This is so what is? Tell me a little bit about this one, because it's a cab. The Petit Verdot is really an incredible grape as well, so tell me what this blend achieves. What does it come out like?

Chaim Sackton: 13:37

So this is. I mean, I'll tell you something. Sometimes it's the opposite of the wines that I make, because I make lighter wines and I would so call it easier to drink. This is kind of the opposite. This is full body, it's not light, it's super heavy. The Petit Verdot is strong in here there's 40% of Petit Verdot, so it's there. And also is strong in here it's 40% of Petit Verdot, so it's there and also the two years in the barrel that gave a lot to the wine.

Chaim Sackton: 14:16

And the main thing is there's two vineyards of the Petit Verdot in the camp. They were very special, just very, very special, and I've been buying the same grapes for years after this and I didn't get the same quality. Where are they located? So the Petit Verdot is in Karem Ben Zimra and the Cab is in Safsufa. Okay, so they're both Upper Galil, right there. The Betzer 21 is a straight Petit Verdot, it's 100% Petit Verdot. It's also full body because it's a straight Petit Verdot. It's 100% Petit Verdot. It's also full body because it's a full. It's a straight Petit Verdot and it's the same vineyard also.

S. Simon Jacob: 14:53

It's not like the Petit Verdot that went into this.

Chaim Sackton: 14:55

That was a better quality. Okay, I mean, I decided to go on a straight Petit Verdot over here, but the quality over here was a drop higher. Very cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 15:07

How did you get here? You know what's the origin story Because a number of the people who listen to my podcast I guess the majority of people who listen to the podcast come from America and they are from the US and they are. There's a whole bunch of people who are wannabe winemakers. They would love to come to Israel, especially, and make wine. Tell me a little bit about how. What drove you, how did you get here and how did you start making wine?

Chaim Sackton: 15:38

Okay, so I was born and raised in Israel Cool, let's start with that. My parents made Aliyah and I got into the wine through my father. Actually, my father makes wine up to today. Okay, he started in the 70s. So he started and the idea of, just, you know, having wine as something was missing in the world, and he never opened up a winery, he just made his own wine, okay, and I was, you know, I was helping him make the wine for a couple of years.

Chaim Sackton: 16:15

At a certain point I decided I'm going to open up my own winery. I mean, it took me a lot of time because I went to study therapy, I went to do a lot of other things before I decided to become a winemaker. It was not my first thing to go to, okay, and also when I went to study the wine. So I realized it's a tough business. It's just it's hard to make money out of it. Right, it's agriculture. It's basically I'm taking an agriculture fruit and turning it into another agriculture thing and then go sell it. So that's the hard part about it. The fun part about it is I love making wine, I love drinking wine and also the idea of, just you know, seeing the form of taking a grape and turning it into something much higher. So that's very special, and the whole. Today I don't do so much about the lab because I send it to outside labs, but just the whole thing of the physics of the lab is very, very interesting. It's fascinating so that that draw me into it.

S. Simon Jacob: 17:20

Did you have a specific vision in founding the winery, a vision as to where you wanted to go with it?

Chaim Sackton: 17:31

Yes, I would say it because I have all different types of wines over here. My vision when I went to school and also my vision making wine was always going on the lighter side. That means less soaking, less alcohol, making a lighter wine. That's just fun to drink and not always has to fit with food, just as itself. I like drinking wine. I don't have to fit the wine with a piece of meat or a piece of cheese. I don't have to down the wine, I have to enjoy just drinking the wine itself. I don't have to down the wine, I have to enjoy just drinking the wine itself.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:10

My wines are less acidic or I would call it, on the higher side of the… the fruity, yeah, the fruitiness, okay.

Chaim Sackton: 18:16

The thing is with sales sometimes it's opposite. So I do have the two types. I have to give the clientele both, the whole world basically. So let's say the GSM is more the wine that I would go to, more than the Heritage that they're triple the price. The Heritage is triple the price. I would go to the GSM because that's me. I like the lighter wines. They're easier, they're fun, I can enjoy it.

Chaim Sackton: 18:47

So I started off my love with light wines. I started off with a straight, more vet, okay, um, I opened up the winery over here in 2016, the first vintage. I made wine over here. But I've been, like I said, I've been making wine with my father for years, I think since 2003. So I was working with, basically back then we had one farmer we would get all our grapes from. He was a guy in Moshav, matah, and I used to sit with him a lot and he would always talk about making light wines. You know picking the grapes early and before getting all these fun. You know picking the grapes early and before getting all these fun. You know not waiting too long on the tree, picking it early and making a nice light wine out of it and a lot of my focus was on the Morved. I actually made Morved for a couple of years straight, morved for a couple of years straight, and sales were hard, so I stopped.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:48

People are coming around to the varietals. Now, today it's coming back in a certain way.

Chaim Sackton: 19:53

So I did make a Morved and I decided it's going to be easier for me to sell it on the name of GSM more than a straight Mourvedre.

Itzak Stern: 20:03

Maybe one day I'll come back to it.

Chaim Sackton: 20:05

That's the thing I mean. My cab still has the highest demand, yeah but that's people so it just is. That's what they are.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:15

They do that. So that's what I'm saying.

Chaim Sackton: 20:17

I have to have the cab on my list and that's part of it, and I actually have it on the lower series also because I want to have the cab so people could buy it, but it's not my one. I mean, I like cab but it's not my first go-to.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:33

So you've gotten a lot of incredible feedback about your Petit Verdot. That's been something that's been. You get a lot of acclaim from what I've seen. How did you pick the amount of aging? Because Petit Verdot is a uniquely kind of powerful grape.

Chaim Sackton: 20:58

I taste the wines, I would say once in four or five months, throughout the barrels, yeah, and then I decide, I start deciding. Then I start deciding which wine is going to what series. I mean, obviously, when I get the grapes I already know what series I'm making, so I know where the grapes are going to. But if, let's say, I would have a Petit Verdot, I have someone who goes to the Nachal Yabok, that's one series, that's a lower series and it's a blend.

Chaim Sackton: 21:32

And I have the Petit Verdot, that's a straight Petit Verdot. So that obviously has to go to the higher series and it has to be very, very high quality because it's just a straight Petit Verdot. So that I do, after a couple of months of sitting in the barrel, I do a tasting and I rate the barrels. I did, let's say, the past vintage. I got three different petit verdeaus. So I go back and I'm saying, from the grapes I know which ones are my professional ones, I know which ones are the higher quality ones and those automatically are going to go to the higher quality wines.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:11

But after a couple of months in the barrel you could start tasting a difference and sometimes there's surprises, so are those surprises… Tell me about one unconventional decision you made in the cellar that really surprised you.

Chaim Sackton: 22:32

That's a good question.

Itzak Stern: 22:34

I would even say maybe this decision here, which is conventional in Rioja, but the idea of getting your wine and saying it's not ready for release and leaving it two years in a bottle before releasing it, that's unconventional for Israel a lot of times.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:47

Yeah, it's really unconventional, but there are other places where it's dictventional for Israel a lot of times.

Itzak Stern: 22:48

Yeah Right, it's really unconventional, but there are other places where it's dictated by the Appalachian.

Chaim Sackton: 22:51

Right. But this was a financial decision because I just couldn't sell it for 100 shekels. I knew the price was going to be much higher if I would age it.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:03

Rosh Hashanah, do you rack the wines out of the barrels?

Chaim Sackton: 23:08

It depends on the year. Okay, yes, I do. Okay, after six months or after eight months, I taste the barrels, yeah, and then I create the blends. Okay, so that means I'm racking it Right. Okay, it usually happens this time of year.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:24

Are any of the wines that you manufacture, that you produce, manufacture that you produce? Are any of those wines you feel like they're underappreciated, that you feel like this is really a special wine?

Chaim Sackton: 23:41

No, I think it's interesting because I'm the one who decides the price of the wine, right, and when you get into pricing. So that's basically it's appreciation, right. So there's a lot of things behind that. It's I want the market to have a cheaper wine, I want that market to have an expensive wine. There's a lot of things behind it, but there's also a lot of appreciation, a lot of appreciation, and even in a 100-shekel bottle, I would expect it to have less appreciation, and it's getting more appreciation than what I would expect.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:22

So we're on the opposite side. Okay, in going through the wines, what's the volume of wines that you produce? Because it looks like you're producing a lot more than I thought you were.

Chaim Sackton: 24:34

Okay, so I'm a small winery. Yeah, I just grew. I started off with 10,000 bottles, yeah, that's a good level.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:44

To be honest, for a small wineryery, 10 000 bottles is actually pretty reasonable.

Chaim Sackton: 24:50

10 000 bottles is reasonable. If I would sell all the wine out of the winery, right? Um, I sell also to the us and also in israel through distributors, so I have to grow. Uh, right now I'm holding by almost 20 000. That's why there's nowhere to move in here, right, and hopefully we're going to grow. My head is going towards the growth. That's where we're going to, so in the next five years.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:22

What's the plan To build a bigger winery In the?

Chaim Sackton: 25:26

next five years we're going to have a bigger winery and hopefully we're. We're going to have Bizrat Asim, a bigger winery and hopefully we're going to hold by 50,000 bottles and a beautiful visiting center.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:35

Please, god, I love this location, though I'm just telling you To look out over the mountains and down across towards Jordan into the Jordan Valley is just awesome from here.

Itzak Stern: 25:51

You can see my house from here. I'm not even kidding when you say, oh, I can see my house from there. When you go out to the street here and you look across the Wadi Kelt, you can actually see alone where I live.

Chaim Sackton: 26:02

So I planted a vineyard over here. That's also part of the next vision of the winery. It's not just having a winery, it's having your own vineyards. It's also the fruit, also the produce of what I'm getting. I'll have a little bit more control. And another thing is more of a tourist is bringing people and having the experience of not just the winery, it's also the agriculture, bringing them out to see the vineyards, see the trees throughout the year. It's very interesting. When did you move here?

S. Simon Jacob: 26:35

12 years ago.

Chaim Sackton: 26:36

Wow, it must have been all alone 12 years ago, there were 25 families over here Right now we're 100 families, but they built all of a five families over here. Right now we're 100 families.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:48

Yeah, but they built all of a dome.

Chaim Sackton: 26:53

It developed in the past 10 years like crazy. It changed the value of the property was nothing. We had no paved roads. I went through two or three cars that you know that just driving on these dirt roads it just kills the car. We had no mikveh. We had no playground. My older kids, they went through childhood without planning a playground Nothing.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:23

You live in a playground. You're in the mountains, yes, but sometimes the small things.

Chaim Sackton: 27:29

My wife does yoga and so these small things that kids hang on a ladder, it's important Today we have it.

Itzak Stern: 27:38

Falling from a ladder is important too. Falling from a ladder.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:41

Yeah.

Chaim Sackton: 27:42

These small things.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:44

So one of the things that you've built your reputation on is like really very high quality hands-on. So one of the things, one of the responsibilities with scaling, is to keep that hands-on.

Chaim Sackton: 27:57

Right. So I would say that basically, good wine comes from good grapes. Yeah, and my job is basically to make sure I'm getting good grapes. Every single year, I do try to get the same vineyards that I work with. That's how I know I'm getting my same grapes and also the same taste, more so-called same area of taste, same idea of wine. So I do have already. For a couple of years I've been working with the same vineyards and I know what I'm getting, and that's the point. The point is to continue with quality, or focus on quality as much as possible.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:36

So in your mind, wine is made in the vineyard or wine is made in the winery.

Chaim Sackton: 28:43

It's a very good question, but basically wine is made in the winery. I help some people make wine and that means that they're getting my same quality grapes and I can't drink their wine. So the answer is wine is made in the winery. The winemaker's job is not to ruin the good grapes, so there's a lot of people that just ruin it, Right, but the process of making the wine is obviously it's a job Very cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:14

Let's taste some. Can we taste Sure? What would you suggest we taste first?

Chaim Sackton: 29:21

I'll ask Yitzchak, because he did taste the wines, and I'll ask him what he thinks.

Itzak Stern: 29:29

I would say first of all. I mean the GSM is a must and the Rosé was very good.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:34

Did you taste the Chemin?

Itzak Stern: 29:36

yes, between that and the Rosé, I prefer the Rosé, but all three were very good and the GSM I found was like he said you know people, you expect one thing and people are blown away by it.

Chaim Sackton: 29:47

I definitely underestimated the GSM, I found, was like you said you expect one thing and people are blown away by it. I definitely underestimated the GSM. It's so-called up to a stage that I didn't make it again. That means I passed the vineyard, basically if it's aged for 12 months in a bottle. So from making the wine until getting it into the bottle, we're talking about 15, 16 months. That means I passed the 2024 vintage and I decided I'm not making the GSM because I was not. It was underestimated.

S. Simon Jacob: 30:20

Okay, and now, when you're tasting it.

Itzak Stern: 30:22

Now, when I'm tasting it, there's going to be a 2025.

Chaim Sackton: 30:26

There will be a 2025. Hopefully it will even come out better. This is the first GSM, so we'll focus on it even higher Wow.

S. Simon Jacob: 30:34

Okay, I'd love to try it. I'd love to try it.

Chaim Sackton: 30:37

Okay, so we got some cheeses. It might work a little bit, you know to, even though the GSM most of my wines don't need food, but it goes.

Itzak Stern: 30:47

You haven't seen the vineyard yet, right? No, I think, chaim, if you have time for that, or if not, I can show them as well. Yeah, we should go out to the vineyard. It's a vineyard with the most beautiful view I've seen and then, oh, I checked out after.

Itzak Stern: 30:59

I left last time I went to check out the other, the Golani thing. Andarta, like a memorial that they made for 41 soldiers, 13, right, yeah, for the 13th Battalion of Golani. Absolutely beautiful For those who were killed during Iron Swords. Wow, right next to your vineyard, okay so, we're trying now the GSM this is the GSM.

Chaim Sackton: 31:29

Yes, you could see the colors, yeah, and I can smell it too.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:38

That's really lovely.

Itzak Stern: 31:43

I find it's like incredibly smooth. We have that tart cherry and even a little bit of like something herbaceous, like a little bit of green.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:51

Yeah.

Itzak Stern: 31:52

But it's just nice.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:54

The thing that's crazy with it is the finish. The finish is just really, really lovely. I think you spot on picked the flavors coming off of it, the what no, he was describing it with the cherry and the green herbaceousness as well A little bit of greenness to it.

Itzak Stern: 32:27

Yeah, was one of the varieties harvested earlier, or I think the Syrah. It would make sense. Yeah, you're also getting on the nose a little bit of that Syrah, like the pepper, even though you said it's a very small amount of Syrah in here.

Chaim Sackton: 32:41

Yeah, but yeah, but it's it's like 17% oh okay, okay, it's not like three.

Itzak Stern: 32:47

No, okay, no, it's not like three. No, okay, it's definitely there.

S. Simon Jacob: 32:53

It is, it's lovely.

Itzak Stern: 32:54

Wow.

Chaim Sackton: 32:57

On the Hebrew label, I didn't write the amounts. On the English label, I had to write the amounts.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:06

Who do you sell through in the United States? Emerald?

Chaim Sackton: 33:08

Okay, ari Okay.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:16

Wow. So where is it available in the US, across the whole US or mainly in the New York metropolitan area?

Chaim Sackton: 33:29

Mostly in the tri-state area.

Itzak Stern: 33:32

But guess who just got it? Who, our buddy Elk? Oh really, oh yeah, okay, chaim didn't know. I'm like, just so you know, you've just hit South Florida, yeah, and hopefully make a splash Right.

Chaim Sackton: 33:43

So I think most of it is still sold in the tri-state area. But I mean, I think most of it is still sold in the tri-state area, but they're working on getting out there.

Itzak Stern: 33:49

The reason I ended up here is because Elk texted me and said hey, listen, I ordered his wines. I ordered Chaim's wines and I had these two. I tasted the two heavier reds, the Nachal Yabok reds.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:03

I think, I believe it was.

Itzak Stern: 34:04

And he said but I ordered all of them, but I haven't tasted the Midba series. Do me a favor, can you drive out there, taste them and let me know?

S. Simon Jacob: 34:12

yeah, but you know, you'll find that anyways he goes.

Itzak Stern: 34:14

I need the peace of mind. Yeah, so I realized it was close to my home and I let him know. You know, two thumbs up and you're good to go. What else can we try it? I would say either the 100% or even the Nachal Rabok has 33%. Petit Verdot, it's actually 34, 33, 33. Okay.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:35

So what's the combination?

Itzak Stern: 34:37

Well, this one is Cab Merlot Petit Verdot. Okay, really, at a third, third, third. And then the Betzer is 100% Petit Verdot. I would say one of those two honestly, or even here Syrah Petit.

Chaim Sackton: 34:50

Verdot. So we're moving up to the next wine. Yes, could we Sure that?

Itzak Stern: 34:58

What do you recommend? Something with a Verde blend? I would say, Okay, One, two, three or four.

Chaim Sackton: 35:07

I do want to taste the heritage last.

Chaim Sackton: 35:09

That's why, okay, so the blend, it's still on the. I mean it's a Verde blend, yeah, but it's not. I wouldn't call it a very full-body wine. It's somewhere. It's also a lighter one. It's also almond wines are on the lighter side. I mean even the straight Petit Bordeaux, because I don't soak the grapes for too long. That's the thing. So don't expect from it to be, I mean, it's way, it's red wine, it's not a GSM, but you're not going to have a heavy Petit Verdot taste. So we're going for this. Let's try it.

Itzak Stern: 35:51

I found it very interesting, though, that it's really like a third of the wine, right, it's not like a mainly Cabernet Merlot, with a little bit, it's a third. A third like a mainly Cabernet. Merlot with a little bit, it's, it's 33 33.

Chaim Sackton: 36:02

It's fascinating. So over here, automatically the smell is already more fruity. You have a much full-bodied smell. But it's already deeper yeah, deeper smells, but I had this on Chavez.

Itzak Stern: 36:18

It was very light by the way I had your GSM on Chavez. It was very well accepted. You're right, it's not what you would expect. You'd expect something you know, especially when you see the cab more tannin and heavy.

Chaim Sackton: 36:37

And this is just nice, it's fun and gentle, I'm making this blend, I would say, since 2018. Same blend and they're just amazing. I mean, I love it.

Itzak Stern: 36:59

Definitely follows what you were saying. You know your vision and your preferred style of wine drinking and then, by extension, winemaking.

Chaim Sackton: 37:06

Right, that's what it is. This represents the Gilad.

Itzak Stern: 37:11

Absolutely Philosophy, yeah, philosophy, there you go Very cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 37:17

Yeah, delicious it is.

Chaim Sackton: 37:19

It's delicious as well, I know it's delicious that I know it doesn't fit everybody's taste buds, like you were saying. You see a cab, you expect it to be super full tannins and round and this whole thing. It's like it's not kicking you. So it's friendly, approachable, approachable, definitely approachable.

Itzak Stern: 37:54

Okay, totally approachable, simon. If I learned anything about tasting wine from your story with the orange wines, simon, if I learned anything about tasting wine from your story with the orange wines you can't approach a wine with a defined category in your head because it just might not fit and then you'll think it's not as good. Right, just approach a wine as it is. Sometimes it's its own category 100%.

S. Simon Jacob: 38:15

I agree, I really agree.

Chaim Sackton: 38:18

So that was the thing when I started selling wine. I would tell people you can't approach my wine with expectations because you don't know the wine. But then they approach it and they're like it's not my style. So I was like, okay, that's what it is. If you're looking for a full-body wine, this is not the style you're looking for it is. If you're looking for a full-body wine, this is not the style you're looking for.

S. Simon Jacob: 38:42

It's a little sad that we get caught up in these boxes that we create in our minds and don't open up to appreciate something a little bit new and different. Flum came out with their white label because of that. He was tired of people telling him that, no, they're not drinking the wine, they won't like it. What do you mean? You won't like it? I read the label, I don't need to, I won't like it. And he said to be fair, don't read the label, just taste the wine. And it was like it was a big deal.

Itzak Stern: 39:21

I was saying, it drives me crazy. You know, from the industry, sometimes I'm thinking like this wine's good and that wine's good. Why do you need so many wines and so many wineries? You know, if it was all blind, I need a wine with my steak. I'll get you it'll pair, it'll be fine. But then suddenly we want there to be a Yakiv Gilad and we want there to be a Yaakov Gilad and we want there to be a Yaakov Agur and we want there to be a Castel Winery and all these wineries specifically because of their story. I think it adds so much to it. So I guess I'm on the fence there with the blind.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:48

Yeah, no, it's interesting. I agree that a blind tasting you should be able to do a blind tasting and just come up with what you think is the best wine, but there's something to be said about sitting down and knowing what you're drinking. I've just found that I guess I have a bias that's built in, though I try very hard to keep my my mind a little bit opened or a lot opened so that's. That's also a lovely one it's easy in this case yeah, yep that's that's the.

Itzak Stern: 40:23

That's also a lovely wine.

Chaim Sackton: 40:24

It's easy in this case, yeah, yep, that's the good wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 40:32

So now we're going to try the heritage.

Chaim Sackton: 40:35

Now we're going to try the heritage. Just want to put wax on the heritage, the stamps.

Itzak Stern: 40:40

Also over here, but also on on the that you showed me.

Chaim Sackton: 40:42

with the I have, I have a stamp let's see this stamp on the wax yeah and I have a stamp also for my bags um. I have this cardboard bag like paper cardboard bag bag a bag, yeah, paper bag.

S. Simon Jacob: 40:58

Okay.

Chaim Sackton: 40:59

Yeah, so instead I buy it blank and then I put my stamp on it Right, so that gives that logo lends itself to be a stamp, a raw stamp.

Chaim Sackton: 41:09

Right. So in this one I also put, I would say, a cork, a real cork, the Chamale, yeah, really Wow. The truth is I wouldn't say I'm disappointed, but I'm happy I work with these corks. What's your usual cork? This is. It's called Vink. It's a compressed cork, very, very high quality. You could look at it. It just it can last, for I mean they have different ones that different years, but I'm saying it could sit in the bottle for five, five to ten years and it looks good. The whole corks are somehow. It's on a scale. Not all of them are good. These were very expensive. These works I because is it because I knew it's an expensive bottle? I had to invest. It's part of the game? Yep, absolutely so, it's part of the game. Someone opens up a bottle. You have the black color over here, right? It's like it talks to you in a certain way. So, yes, every bottle of wine I open up would look at the cork and even smell the cork.

S. Simon Jacob: 42:28

Yeah.

Chaim Sackton: 42:29

So that's why, also, I keep them laying down to have it damp and to have the wine on the cork. It does something to it, it represents something, so in a certain way it did a job. But on the otherk, it does something to it, it represents something, so in a certain way it did a job, but on the other hand, I don't really believe in it.

S. Simon Jacob: 42:45

It's like so this is super, super deep.

Chaim Sackton: 42:57

You can see the difference like two different worlds.

Itzak Stern: 43:01

Heavier, but like silky kind of mouthfeel, like it fills your mouth.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:05

Right, the tannins are very strongly there, so this has been.

Chaim Sackton: 43:15

This is a 2019. Yeah, it's 24 months in a barrel Yep, 24 months in a bottle, and now it's out 2019. Yeah, it's 24 months in a barrel yep, 24 months in a bottle, and now it's out for sale. So I took, I mean, it's already five years from the harvest right and it still has a way to go.

Chaim Sackton: 43:39

Yeah, definitely, yeah, absolutely. There's a long way to go. Before Pesach I had a lot of sales with this and I told a couple of stores that I didn't make it. I didn't repeat the winemaking again because I didn't have such quality wine, so they said they're going to put away.

Itzak Stern: 44:02

It's like Bring it out in a few years yeah.

Chaim Sackton: 44:06

So soon I'm going to run out of the wine and some stores are going to have it.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:12

That happens, that's part of life.

Itzak Stern: 44:14

I love when that happens, when you have, like, a winemaker tasting and somebody pulls out a bottle that he hasn't seen in years because his winery ran out and the stores ran out and you've been sellering it. I love when that happens, when you have a winemaker tasting and somebody pulls out a bottle that he hasn't seen in years because his winery ran out and the stores ran out and you've been cellaring it. It's like wow.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:32

I can't believe it's still in To blow the winemaker's mind with his own wine that he hasn't seen in years is always a very special experience. Right, that's what I typically do. Yeah, exactly, I have wines that some of the wineries don't have anymore. They've gotten better, so it's really I'm thankful.

Chaim Sackton: 44:49

Right. People ask me all the time why I don't age wines, and my answer is it's not my business.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:55

Your business is to make wine and sell it Right.

Chaim Sackton: 44:59

And people like they say it's going to be much better, the value is going to be perfect.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:03

That's exactly why you want to sell it Buy?

Chaim Sackton: 45:05

it and put it away. If you think so, buy it and put it away, because it's not my business. I mean, I do keep just for storage, but not. The amounts I have are nothing.

Itzak Stern: 45:21

Would you, I wonder what your response would be like if you saw your wines going again later like a secondhand market, right Like in 10 years you've sold this this year, next year, god willing, you're done with it. 10 years you see people start selling this as like a very high value.

Chaim Sackton: 45:37

I'd be very happy, thrilled, yeah, yeah, I mean, it proved itself. That means that it made it. First thing is my name is going in front of me, expensive, wines.

Chaim Sackton: 45:50

I tell people expensive wines is not about quality, it's about name. And I mean, this is an expensive bottle of wine. So there's one thing is I created a name so people can trust me that I'm making good wines. For the past 10 years, baruch Hashem I could say, okay, I came out with an expensive bottle of wine. Second thing is let's continue in that way and let's see where it's going to be holding. If somebody's going to take this bottle three, four years from now and sell it for I mean bottle three, four years from now and sell it for I mean, let's say, 100% more, so it would make me happy.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:26

It means the wine actually is holding, but it's not my business.

Chaim Sackton: 46:30

My business is to sell wine. I can't hold on to wine for too long.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:35

Of the wine that you've produced from Gilad, if you had any of those wines. Yes, if you had any of those wines, which wine would you pick to open tonight and who would you open it with?

Chaim Sackton: 46:54

So we're talking about a series of different wines and each one has a different flavor. Now, tonight means just a regular day in the middle of the week of opening up a bottle of wine. So I would always go on the lighter side. Okay, because it's easier to drink, it's fun, and we're talking about sitting down with a friend for dinner. Even without dinner, just sitting on a bottle of wine, smoking a cigar, I would always go on the lighter side. Um, I wouldn't. I would not go on the rose and the whites because, like at night time, if we're all about, yeah, at night time, so I would definitely prefer the reds.

S. Simon Jacob: 47:36

yep, I'll go for a gsm the gsm, yeah, and what would you pair with that for food?

Chaim Sackton: 47:43

So I'll tell you something out of the box. Okay, I prefer to drink light wines with food than full-body wines with food. Yeah, in a certain way you would think that the Heritage would go with a good piece of steak, because they're both a lot of flavors and very deep flavors. On the other hand, is I'm blocking the flavors because I'm not getting the full potential of each one, because I'm blocking the flavors because they're both full body. If I take a steak and I would drink it with a light wine, in a certain way it's going to go down much easier.

S. Simon Jacob: 48:21

You know what I would drink with this? You know what I would drink with this? You know what I would eat with this? Let me see Chocolate chip cookies.

Itzak Stern: 48:26

I was going to say dark chocolate. Chocolate chip cookies. That was close.

S. Simon Jacob: 48:29

I love chocolate chip cookies with a heavy wine, with a real… Absolutely, it's just like… Right, that's, you know. You can keep a steak with whatever else, but at the end, when I hit dessert and if I don't have any wine left over and we've made chocolate chip cookies, I actually almost have to open a bottle of wine in order to have dessert.

Itzak Stern: 48:57

And ideally like a fruity red.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:00

Yeah, no, yeah, a big bold red, because it just goes.

Chaim Sackton: 49:04

Listen, dessert wines usually are full-body.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:12

I mean they could be sweet but they're very rich with flavors. I like those special fruity, sweet dessert wines but they don't go with. They don't go with. They go with certain desserts but they don't go with, you know, like chocolate chip cookies, and this would, this would do great with it, unbelievable. We're going to go take a look at the at the we're going to take a look at the vineyard.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:38

I can't tell you how thankful I am for coming out here, just because of the breathtaking vista that surrounds this house. It's like unbelievable. You can see into Jordan. You can see down towards the Dead Sea. I don't know if you can see the Dead Sea from here. I didn't see that.

Chaim Sackton: 49:57

Yeah, on a nice day. It depends on the weather. You can probably see it. It depends on the weather. It depends on the weather you can actually see down into the valley. It's crazy, usually in the morning, so the sun shines on the water, yes, so then you can see the water shine back, so it's nice.

Itzak Stern: 50:14

What I want to know is how you, the manual labor that you do here I mean there's a lot Do you bring guys in to help out at times of work?

Chaim Sackton: 50:24

So there's different things I do bring. Actually, crushing the grapes. I have full machinery. I could almost get all the grapes without. The main problem started off with crushing the grapes is always very high pressure because I'm also in the vineyard. I'm there physically, I'm checking the grapes and I'm dealing with trucks bringing the grapes and it has to come as quick as possible. And then I have to have a lot of workers to make sure it's in the basement as quick as possible, because usually it's in the middle of August. You don't want it to get hot, so I don't want it to get hot.

Chaim Sackton: 51:00

So that part because usually it's in the middle of August, you don't want it to get hot, I don't want it to get hot. That part I took care of. I got machines. I could literally take care of it. I could get five or six tons of grapes with zero pressure, Zero. I have a forklift. I have a machine that flips it into the crusher. I have a pump. Everything's upstairs. I'm moving barrels down here so I do everything upstairs. Now. I have a long pipe that comes down here and these vats they fill up. The barrels have to get out of here. These barrels are here. They're not supposed to be in here. This room is made for winemaking, not wine aging. My next process is I'm bottling, I'm labeling all these bottles and I'm moving the barrels to here. This has to happen before the summer.

Itzak Stern: 51:48

And then we'll get like a nice glass.

Chaim Sackton: 51:51

I'll put it in the glass. Whatever Bottles they got to get out of here. Yeah, he can, yeah, so, and then the only thing is I have to have one person.

S. Simon Jacob: 52:01

I was going to ask you where do you put the vats? The vats are all inside each other.

Itzak Stern: 52:05

They're all here, they're all inside each other, so your pipe comes down from here with the grape juice.

Chaim Sackton: 52:10

I have a hole in the wall.

Itzak Stern: 52:11

It'll go straight into the vats.

Chaim Sackton: 52:12

It'll go straight into the vats.

S. Simon Jacob: 52:13

But the vats have to be not inside each other. That's what. I'm saying, that's why right now I have barrels in the room. You're answering the question I had because I looked around and I said I see the barrels and I see the bottles and I see how you could do it, but how in the world were you fermenting?

Chaim Sackton: 52:31

the stuff. So when I come to the fermenting process, yeah, all those barrels have to be gone, the vats I have, like there's a thousand liters and 700 liters- that's where they nest. And the whole room is literally you can't walk into the room. They're all like. I leave a small path.

S. Simon Jacob: 52:55

I thought there was another room that I haven't seen because I was wondering that exactly I was sitting. I was looking around. How in the world do you ferment anything? Thank you, thanks for coming. Thank you for being on the Kosher Tehwah and really I'm so happy because you're one of the people I really wanted to sit down and talk to. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you are new to the Kosher Terwa, please check out our many past episodes.