S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to the Kosher Teruah. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome back to the Kosher Terroir, where tradition meets terroir and every bottle tells a story. Today, we are diving into a vineyard that's rewriting the rules of kosher winemaking with a pure natural touch. Meet Betachia Winery, where ancient craft meets modern wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 0:50

Nestled in the heart of Israel's Ella Valley, this boutique winery handcrafts high-quality, additive-free wines using hand-picked grapes and zero preservatives. Led by a young, visionary duo of Jakob Singer, the CEO, and Petachia Wittenstein, the passionate winemaker behind the bottle, petachia Winery is all about authenticity, sustainability and soul. From the cotton paper labels to zero plastics, every detail reflects a deep respect for the land. So pour yourself a glass of wonderful kosher wine and let's swirl, sip and savor the story of Petahia Winery right here on the Kosher Terroir. Welcome to the Kosher Terroir. Thank you for having us. It's a pleasure having you in the studio. It's wonderful. So I have with me here Yaakov Singer, shalom, and I have Petahia Wittenstein, who represents Petahia Winery. So, baruch Hashem, welcome, welcome, thank you.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:56

Thank you for having us.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:57

I was quite surprised to taste a bottle of Petahia and I was really kind of blown away by it, so we'll discuss it a little bit, but welcome.

Yaacov Singer: 2:11

Thank you First of all. I could say it on public record now it is amazing to be in your house. It's a beautiful house. Well, I first just wanted to start off with a surprise, because Patakia has been telling me the whole way here it's my birthday today. Yeah, and I have to play it Like I don't know. I didn't know about it. I said, no way, it's your birthday. That's so cool, but really I brought a present. No, no way. And I wanted to bring it here because I said you know, it's your birthday, wow.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:46

We're big night, so I brought something he would enjoy. Wow, you can edit this out, no more let it some air.

Petachya Witenstein: 2:50

No, I think that's cool. Yeah, no way wow, oh wow.

Yaacov Singer: 2:52

Your favorite nuts. That's to the best winemaker in the world and the best brother-in-law. Yes, by the way, brother-in-law.

Petachya Witenstein: 3:02

wow, yes, that's cool. This is, this is for all to have these are salted almonds, salted cashews dried mangoes.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:11

I'm a crazy cashew lover, oh good, but you know, what I do normally is I freeze them. Really, I put them in the freezer. If you ever want to have cashews that are really crazy, just leave them in the freezer. You pop them out. It's an incredible snack.

Petachya Witenstein: 3:29

Definitely going to try that, okay, yeah, it's cool. Thank you for the surprise Wow.

Yaacov Singer: 3:34

It's a big day.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:37

Cool. How old are you? Do you mind me asking?

Petachya Witenstein: 3:39

No, okay, 32. Younger than ever Wow, yes, 32 years young, wow, yes, 32 years young, wow, and you live in Bechemesh. Yes, both in Bechemesh, not too far away from each other. Okay, thank you, no problem, and yeah, our wives are sisters, cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:00

And your wives are from where Israel.

Petachya Witenstein: 4:05

Originally South Africa. Oh, south Africa. Yeah, but they both were born and grew up here. The parents are from South Africa, okay, cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:11

Very cool, so you're originally from.

Petachya Witenstein: 4:15

I grew up, born and grew up over here. My parents are from the States.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:18

Okay, and that's Betachia, and.

Yaacov Singer: 4:22

Yaakov, I'm originally from Lakewood. Okay, wow, you heard of it.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:27

Yeah, I did. I used to live pretty close by. I used to live in New Jersey. I'm a little town called West Orange, so does being in Israel ever get old to you?

Yaacov Singer: 4:38

No, no, not at all.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:40

Isn't it the greatest thing on earth? Greatest it's like, unbelievable. There's no better place to raise your children than here in Israel.

Yaacov Singer: 4:50

I 100% agree. It's like crazy I couldn't move back to America. I love visiting America, but living I can't see myself living there.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:01

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. How did you guys get interested at all in wine?

Petachya Witenstein: 5:08

Okay. So a few years ago there was a few stuff that caused me to start making wine. One thing was also a little bit of a halakhic thing, which was I wanted to create wine which would be perfect from a halakhic point of view, which means not cooked, no additives, which sulfite actually is considered one of the additives, which is not royal agave misbech, and that was one reason how I started making it. Another reason is also because I realized that I buy a bottle every week. I'm very creative, baruch Hashem, I mean, I do different stuff. I'm like why buy wine if I can make my own? So I figured you know how hard could it be? The first year wasn't too great. Also, the second year wasn't, but the first year someone said, okay, maybe you should learn how to make wine. But then eventually I was getting better at it and people started liking it. So did you have a?

S. Simon Jacob: 6:06

mentor. Did you have somebody that you went to to learn how to make wine, or you just researched it yourself?

Petachya Witenstein: 6:12

So a lot of it was research, a lot of it was experience, just issues that I came up with as I was making the wine and since Baruch Hashem, I'm sensitive to different small details. I was able to notice different issues coming up and realizing the issue and looking for solutions, and that's how the wine was perfected. Give me an example, what sort of things? Okay, so one of the big issues with natural fermentation, spontaneous fermentation, is that it could be stuck and then you have other stuff growing right is that? It could be stuck and then you have other stuff growing right and, as you mentioned, which is something which I've heard in other places also, in a lot of wineries, once they have commercial yeast, then everything is contaminated. Yeah, so we have a bag of commercial yeast which we don't use. It's just there to save if we see something stuck which we actually don't use it.

Petachya Witenstein: 7:02

But in order to prevent this issue of having a stuck fermentation, having other stuff growing and evolving before we want the fermentation to start, I actually create a starter from natural fermentation. So the tests I do beforehand that when I go to the vineyard and I'm taking samples and checking the sugar and seeing how stuff are tasting and looking. I let it sit and ferment in different small batches and I'm able actually to see. I see one of them evolved into a much nicer smell. Good smelling tastes good and I use that for my starter. So it's still natural fermentation.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:36

Yeah, but it's not. It's a natural fermentation of your selected yeast.

Petachya Witenstein: 7:40

But it's the same vineyard.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:42

Okay, no, that's great, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:45

It's an interesting way around that it's an interesting way around it, which is exactly what other people would do if they had the patience to do that. They choose to take. You know, buy commercial yeasts. I mean, many of the winemakers experiment with yeast all the time. They're constantly. It's funny. I found that many of the winemakers started out making bread and pastries and stuff like that and then they went into wine and they said you notice a path, you're a yeast addict, you just like yeast, and that's what you're working with.

Petachya Witenstein: 8:24

Yeah, I never went the other way around, because I've made lechem achmetzet from our yeast of the wine. Yeah, using that to ferment Isn't that great?

S. Simon Jacob: 8:33

Oh, it tastes delicious and it's beautiful.

Petachya Witenstein: 8:36

Well, it depends what sort of wine you're using, but if you're using red wines, it's a beautiful pinkish color and it's just once it was started, once the yeast were taking over the flour, it would just continue adding flour and the thing was alive and we had a few beds from it yeah and no.

S. Simon Jacob: 8:53

It's amazing, it's absolutely amazing yeast is an amazing thing I mean it's, it's this live vehicle that does everything. So right.

Petachya Witenstein: 9:05

I like describing how they have the natural fermentation. I guess maybe we have a debate if you're considering this spontaneous fermentation. No, it's not spontaneous, it's okay.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:14

But go ahead.

Petachya Witenstein: 9:15

Okay, when there's this in the wild yeast even though I don't know I'm not able to control a specific strain of yeast, obviously, because there's probably millions of them, yeah, of different strains, even though they might be off in the same family pretty much, except in the bad ones. But when you have this fermentation going on, I like looking at it as this big battle, like this war battle. So there's different units, different types of soldiers and everyone's doing their thing, types of soldiers and everyone's doing their thing. Some of them are going to take over the battle in the beginning and they're going to be dominant and start eating all the sugars and sometimes also, kind of ballistic, eating all the yeast, and then eventually something's going to cause them to die out and there'll be some other strain taking over them.

Petachya Witenstein: 9:58

Now, the commercial yeast, from what I researched, a lot of them are just so strong and dominant, especially putting a lot in at one time. It's A lot of them are just they're so strong and dominant, especially putting a lot in at one time just going to take over the party, especially if you started out with killing all the wild yeast with sulfite or maybe cooking whatever it is. So, having this whole battle happening together a lot of these yeasts when they get to the end line, which is the end product, the wine. So some of them are giving different aromas which you would not be able to get with the commercial yeast, because it doesn't exist in the commercial yeast it's its own strain, its own family, not really its own family, but its own thing affecting it.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:36

The reason they use commercial yeast is control. I mean, that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to control it. You're a risky guy, okay.

Yaacov Singer: 10:46

But I'm just telling you I can attest to it, okay.

S. Simon Jacob: 10:51

And we're talking, the winemaker here is Patakia, so that's the one who's talking the most in the conversation, at least at the moment. But so I get it, at least at the moment, but so I get it. You know, what you're doing is finding ways to make the variety of yeast number one from a natural source that you're seeing and then being able to control it so that that yeast strain wins out, or the yeast strain you want wins out over the other strains that are there. Because that's the reason why, once you use a yeast in a winery, it's very hard to say I'm going to use wild yeasts, because these strains, just once you develop them to be stronger, just kind of take over.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:42

Yeah, and you can't get them out there and everything that's.

Petachya Witenstein: 11:46

You're talking about the risk. So I just, uh, I don't want to sound too radical, but I'll try being being natural about it. I, I've been thinking about it. When I went into the hole into making wine, you know, it was been saying it's such a big risk, and I I get it. I understand why people are saying it's a big risk, but I'm but one question keeps on coming up to me is the whole ancient world made wine like this? Now some people will claim and say their wine wasn't so great. Okay, I think that it's hard to prove, first of all. Second of all is that the ancient wine industry was a massive part of the industry, so it's hard to say that it was just like something like people forced down their throats, especially if it was coming from Yavne, which they just recently found that they were producing millions of bottles of wine In Yavne, in Yavne, israel was one of the biggest distributing countries.

Yaacov Singer: 12:36

Yeah, I wonder how their systems worked, what their process was like.

S. Simon Jacob: 12:41

A lot of manual effort.

Yaacov Singer: 12:43

A lot of manual effort. Yes, a lot of manual effort, but it was.

S. Simon Jacob: 12:47

There was also a lot of, you know, variability in it. Um, we're getting very crazy about trying to make consistent wine every year and we want it to taste a certain way and we want to taste it the way it used to taste. It tasted when we made it last year.

Petachya Witenstein: 13:06

When we're talking about consistency of the product, we're not trying to be consistent. We're creating, we're letting the wine, we're letting the grapes pronounce themselves, and a lot of our work is really preventing stuff that could ruin them If it's temperature, if it's us like, for example, the whole process of making the wine, every time you come into the winery with gloves and masks which I don't know any other winery who do that and that's because preventing minimal not having any spit and any other bacterias coming in. So stuff like that which is keeping it clean, sterile, chitur and different stuff we're doing to make sure that we're not having other interference that could ruin this wine. But again, going back to the point of how they made wine in the ancient times, I always have the question how did they manage making? It must have been an industry that was worthwhile because everyone was doing it, so obviously it wasn't going bad as much as people today fear that it might. Because everyone was doing it. So obviously it wasn't going bad as much as people today are feared that it might go bad. And they were managed to do it. So there should be some system and I believe that we're not experienced enough yet because we have other solutions that we don't have to get to that experience. So we're just going around it.

Petachya Witenstein: 14:19

And I want to suggest something even a bit. Even more extreme is that I think that a lot of wine, you have this amazing vineyard, unbelievable terroir, so we have this amazing land, temperature, climate and someone making the wine Everything's amazing. But then, after you made this unbelievable wine, you have to sell it because someone has to eat at the end of the day. Even with all of our love for wine, we also want to make a profit from it. So they take this amazing product and technically they have to do a process a little bit of ruining it, hoping you're not going to ruin it too much and still continue having this unbelievable product with this preventing it from going bad, giving you longer life on the shelf, and hoping your wine still stays good. In other words, obviously today we were able to control it and there's lots of different methods to make sure the wine still comes out good.

Petachya Witenstein: 15:12

But I think that pretty much everyone would agree that if you were able not to put in any additives, you wouldn't do it. There isn't any reason to add something which really doesn't add to the wine. At the worst case it's ruining something if you're lucky and you know what you're doing, so it's you're not ruining it, but it's also it's definitely not adding anything. Okay, there could be a little bit of argument on that point. No, I'm, I hear you so. So that was.

Petachya Witenstein: 15:37

So, again, looking at risk, our khazan, like our vision of what we're trying to do is figure out, you know, sort of cracking the system of how to create natural wine with I don't know. I'm not going to get into when I say minimal intervention. Yeah, so I'm not. I'm not getting into the whole, like the what, like the different laws and the different how people are going to describe it exactly, but I'm saying giving this grape, letting it pronounce itself and moving away all the stuff that could ruin this wine, which is also one of the reasons why we haven't done wood. We haven't used oak, also for this reason, because I believe that oak, even with the complexity that adds, I feel that that's also an additive. It's an external additive which is fine if people enjoy it. But if we're trying to capture the pure taste of the grape, then adding other stuff, I'm considering it in a certain sense, additives.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:33

So you use amphoras, you use clay or concrete. Right Ceramic, okay ceramic.

Petachya Witenstein: 16:43

Yeah, so this year was very exciting because, uh, we actually built our ceramic vats. Okay, so we have this gigantic ceramic. Uh, that's the concrete and outside and ceramic and inside. Okay, um, and yeah, and glass and we're we're gonna move to. When we grow a little bit more. We'll get either also concrete and also amphoras, amphoras, amphoras. I've actually experimented in wild clay, in clay from the mountains Right, and created different vessels from it. It's a little bit complicated because they leak.

S. Simon Jacob: 17:19

You know, people don't realize how many variables impact wine. It's just crazy. That's my favorite part about wine. It's just crazy.

Yaacov Singer: 17:25

That's my favorite part about wine is every little nuance affects the wine. It gives it a different flavor.

S. Simon Jacob: 17:33

You've got an interesting thought, though that all of the things people do to control the fermentation gets away from just naturally letting it do what it wants, as much as you're trying to be pure and this, and that you end up having to deal with what the grapes throw at you and what the weather throws at you and what Kadesh Baruch Hu throws at you. So that's, you know that's part of it.

Yaacov Singer: 18:04

You know that's one of the very fun processes. I'm not as creative and in touch with nature as Patakia, but one of the things that is a lot of fun being in the winery is is all these things that come up during the the winemaking process that I'm. I like follow rules. Like I asked Patakia, like what should I do now? Like okay, do this, okay, I'll do that and put the wine here, put the grapes here, do this, do that. And when things like start going a different way, like I get stuck, like what should I do? And that's like where Pataki is at his best. You know just feeling out the situation, coming up with solutions. You know doing things with the wine and coming up with creative ideas. And yeah, that kind of brings the wine. We have like probably 30 different wines in our, in our winery actually from these things like let's take the peels from here and the stems from here, mix it with this water, and he just has like 30 experiments like all yeah around, just thing, yeah that's the fun part.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:05

That's how you know not a lot of people are, um are able to experiment like that. So you're in, you're in a very special position to do that, um. So tell me a little bit about what you're doing. I was surprised, when I tasted the wine that was given to me, that it was an Argumon. That's a crazy grape, I mean. I have tasted some fantastic Argumons, but I also know it's difficult and I was impressed with how good it was. So that's one of the things that surprised me, yeah.

Yaacov Singer: 19:48

Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:50

Clapping is in order. It is no, that's good.

Petachya Witenstein: 19:58

Yes.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:59

Yeah, I can't even do that.

Petachya Witenstein: 20:01

So this vineyard, this, is more sophisticated than I thought Tell me about what? Yeah, so this vineyard, this is more sophisticated than I thought Tell me

S. Simon Jacob: 20:06

about what yeah where is this vineyard.

Petachya Witenstein: 20:09

So this vineyard is right outside of Zagim, you know Zagim. Zagim is a Kfar Noah. Okay, kids and Risk. Yeah, my brother. He used to be an Av Bayit. Now he's sort of in charge over there for different stuff. It's not a Haredit place, by the way, and so I was exposed to that area. It's.

Petachya Witenstein: 20:32

It's Shvelat Yehuda, which is also an ancient grape area also, and this vineyard originally was planted I don't know who planted it, but it's about it should be close to 20 years at least and Zahim, this Kfar Noor, used to take care of it, sometimes better, sometimes it wasn't.

Petachya Witenstein: 20:51

I don't know if it was specifically their responsibility, but sometimes it was not really taken care of so well. And when we took them with grapes the first time, which was two years ago, last year, the thing was pretty much abandoned and it still made great, this Agamon, I feel like it's like, even though it was developed here and it found its home, it was born here but it wants to stay here and it just developed so nicely and it's really rooted nicely and it fits, even though it comes off a little bit as a heavy wine because of deep color, but it has something very pleasant and not so heavy, fit and um, and I feel like it was just uh, when I from the second I saw it and tasted it, I was like this is my grape, like I love this grape, yeah it's only really really recent, recent, that people have started to make that really really recent.

S. Simon Jacob: 21:56

You know, it is really really recent to me because I'm over 70. Actually, probably the first who made an Argoman that was its own varietal, meaning that he made wine out of Argoman directly, not blended was Avi Feldstein. Avi Feldstein and he you know people looked at him like are you crazy? And he made a great wine and the trick is to do it consistently. So you've got your hands full trying to keep that going.

Yaacov Singer: 22:30

I can attest that it's been at least three years now in the making. It's been fantastic Delicious wines.

Petachya Witenstein: 22:36

Yeah, the vineyard has its charm. We've been through it with hard times and good times, so we actually have a nice story this right now in the world, when we're picking, we do picking by hand, even though a machine could pick over there, but we do picking by hand and we're getting phone calls from our wives, there's a missile coming from the hoolies and we're lying down in the vineyard and over us is these big booms Like wow, this is like. This is Eretz. Yisrael Nick needs to be assumed. We're here, we're here to stay. We're lying in the vineyard on the ground. It was like the most unbelievable feeling.

Yaacov Singer: 23:16

I think that goes into terroir. Yeah, definitely.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:19

Sure, a hundred percent. I agree with you. They only shoot iron dome to protect areas with populations. So if it's an open shetach, you know an open field. Open fields are all vineyards, so you know. Anytime somebody says, oh don't worry, you know it landed in an open field.

Yaacov Singer: 23:42

Oh God, which vineyard did that land in? So that's that's the problem that's why I got so nervous in this field, because we're in the open field, this is where they let it drop yeah, this is exactly where they let them drop, so yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a challenge.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:57

It's been a challenge and the best thing to do is lay flat on the ground so you don't get any shrapnel. But it is crazy, and I've seen some vineyards up north where there's sections of them just gone because of missiles, so it's been a tough couple years now. So you're in this vineyard. It grows.

Petachya Witenstein: 24:27

What varietals are in the vineyard. This vineyard itself is Argaman, it's about. I think it's about 30 dunam.

Petachya Witenstein: 24:35

The whole thing is 30 dunam, but that first part is Argaman. The second part, there's the one next to it which is not Argaman. It could be it's a muslin, I'm not sure Some white grape at the end of it. Across from it, we have where we got our cabernet and where they're all from, okay, and then we have Shiraz, which is also. It's all pretty much in the same sort of valley, yeah, yeah. So that's all very much Emaka'ela.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:02

That's such a beautiful place, Emaka'ela. It's just an incredible area.

Petachya Witenstein: 25:06

Yes, I heard that this vineyard was pretty much abandoned and I could get from it. So I went and I got from there and then we decided to make them. But the grapes were just, and there's always the argument if only good grapes can make good wine. But in this case we didn't need the argument because it was just great grapes the color and the taste and the aromas and they were just delicious, just as they were, Even though this vineyard itself is not so consistent.

Petachya Witenstein: 25:37

Some grow much bigger fruit and some grow it's almost like I've been trying to track them. Who planted it? To find out if this was one of the experimental vineyards they planted. So in this vineyard it was like even more extreme it could be this is more common, but like some parts of it where the sugar was like 14 and some was like 32 and we had to in order to get a good balance. I was going all over the vineyard to get a good balance. I was going all over the vineyard to get the samples to see exactly what area we need to pick.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:06

You really need to segment it and then go through it, and that's the only way you'll know, year after year, how it does, because there's so many things, what's under those vines, and there's a lot of rocky areas, and some of them actually cause the vines to stress, which actually makes the grapes better. So it's really kind of crazy.

Yaacov Singer: 26:43

Again another human-like phenomenon in grapes. That's stress. Good stress, Stress makes people bad.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:51

Well, that's the whole thing with Kadesh Barhu and us. You know we're supposed to be like you take silver and you refine it Right, and then it gives off some stuff. You take silver and you refine it Right, and then it gives off some stuff, and then the more you refine it, the more you absolutely stress it out, burn it and what have you. That's how you end up getting the finest silver.

Petachya Witenstein: 27:14

Yeah, I heard a nice idea about this from some guy called Malachi. He's in Zaharim, so he said that when we prune, we call it Zmirah. Right, yeah, he said it's a funny thing calling it Zmirah, which sounds like music, and what you're doing is you're chopping off the plant. It seems like you're ruining it, he said. But the truth is, the music without the beat, without the cutting of the tunes, won't be music. What creates the music is the fact that you have the stoppings in the middle. So when you take this vine and you're cutting it, you're calling it Zimila, because you're actually doing what music does. That's what's going to create this better thing is, by cutting up these, making a cut up.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:55

It's very true. It's basically, instead of having noise, you're improving it, and that's what we're supposed to do with everything in the world. The difference between us and the Buddhists? The Buddhists are supposed to go through life and not even leave footprints. If they could walk through the sand and not leave footprints, that's exactly what they ideally want to do, and with us, it's exactly the opposite. If you've walked through life and you haven't even left footprints, you've wasted your life. God put us here to improve everything, so it's really special. So what are we going to taste? Let's taste something.

Yaacov Singer: 28:40

This is my favorite time. Okay, so this kanyan is from a very, very special vineyard. Let's taste something. This is my favorite time.

Petachya Witenstein: 28:43

Go for it carignan maybe okay, so this carignan is from a very, very special vineyard. Okay, I started telling you before there's a very nice story about it.

Yaacov Singer: 28:49

Oh, you want to start with the carignan first. What?

Petachya Witenstein: 28:52

let me ask you a question let me ask you a question.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:54

Yes, you don't make any whites do you?

Petachya Witenstein: 28:56

so this we actually. I wasn't able to get white grapes like the ones we wanted to get, yeah, but there was. This is the surprise wine and I'm letting you know. This is like for, just because I know you appreciate interesting, you know, out-of-the-box style wines, yep, or at least to put it on your portfolio that you tasted this wine, yeah, so it's actually made from edible grapes what's called edible grapes. You want to try the white first? Yeah, yeah, from edible grapes what's called edible grapes. You want to?

Yaacov Singer: 29:22

try the white first.

Petachya Witenstein: 29:23

Yeah, the white is. Let's just say it's sort of experimental. I brought it here just for people who appreciate wine, okay, but it's yeah crimson, yeah, crimson. You've heard the grapes, no, okay, let's see how we finished the harvest of the. What was it? The Shiraz or the?

Petachya Witenstein: 29:48

yeah, either the Shiraz or the Cabernet we're sitting there, it's dark outside, it's getting dark. I have my flashlight on and there's another vineyard of fruit which they finished picking already and whatever's left. The guy told me, just pick. So I'm like, okay, I'll take some for my kids to eat and I'm smelling these grapes and they smell so delicious and so aromatic and just very unique. It's actually more. It looks more like a rosé, you'll see.

Yaacov Singer: 30:13

I just want you to look at the bottle for a second just to appreciate something. Wow, that looks fantastic, Crazy. Just look at the actual label. Look where it says Crimson I love these. Patakhi wrote that that's handwritten.

Petachya Witenstein: 30:32

Because we don't have labels for it. So I figured let's make it nice.

Yaacov Singer: 30:36

That's crazy. That's Sophorus and also the Carnion. I just saw this for the first time.

Petachya Witenstein: 30:44

It's got to keep it interesting. You know it's part of the creativity. You know, Creating wine is more than just making the wine it's creating its environment. It is yeah.

Yaacov Singer: 30:55

Wow, the color is beautiful.

Petachya Witenstein: 30:57

Okay now, if anyone is not, this is not anyone's palate, so feel free, I won't get insulted. We'll try it. We'll try it. L'chaim Toby Mishal, l'chaim, l'chaim, this smells like I would wear this as a perfume.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:12

This is the color of, of what do you think? Candy? Yeah, it's like a candy color, it's. It's not really a white, it's.

Petachya Witenstein: 31:30

it's like a rosé, but it's not like a rosé that I've ever yeah, because the grapes are sort of off, sort of this color just in the grape. They're not red but they're not white. There's some type of combination.

Yaacov Singer: 31:44

I can't believe this is what it tastes like now yeah, I tasted this a few months ago it was like a watered down, just completely out of balance. I actually cooled this off a little bit. It would be great if it was a little chilled yeah.

Petachya Witenstein: 32:02

So this is actually, as we said, a crimson. I don't know if you ever tasted that. No, that's what they call a grape. Yeah, it's actually sold as a Just a table grape A nafmachal, a table grape. Yeah. So this again is part of a little bit of being a little bit naughty. Breaking the Breaking the rules yeah, because I feel like we're creating, we're making new stuff, so why not experiment and see what can happen? Cool.

Yaacov Singer: 32:32

Change the cork. What's?

S. Simon Jacob: 32:34

your thoughts on the wine. It's really interesting, it's not. That sounds bad. I don't mean to be bad, it is.

Petachya Witenstein: 32:48

It'll open up a little more. Yeah, it's taking a.

S. Simon Jacob: 32:52

It's going to take a little bit of time. I've never tasted anything like it.

Petachya Witenstein: 32:58

Yeah, me too. Listen, it's part of training our palates, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

S. Simon Jacob: 33:09

No, I don't mean that in a bad way. I've never tasted anything like it. But I never tasted anything like orange wines either, until I tasted them and I said this is not for me. This is more, you know, closer to something that I would like to drink than an orange wine, but I've become very I'm a big fan of orange wines now, so I'll keep it closed and you'll chill it a little bit more afterwards and taste it again if you'd like Okay, this is for the Taranian Yep.

Petachya Witenstein: 33:44

So the story? Should I tell the story about it? Yeah, please. So this person he's older. Right now he's probably around eight years old or so Yep, he has.

Petachya Witenstein: 33:59

He got a few plots from Rav Kana in Moshe, bet Meir, this yeshiva originally, when it opened up, was actually it's a Haredi yeshiva which was originally opened up as sort of what you would call today Tarva Avarda. They actually worked the fields. Rav Kana's father was. He was part of the guys from the Ymir yeshiva who came from Shanghai and eventually the government were looking for people to populate different areas in Israel, so they gave him this big piece of land in Moshe to open his Yishiva. So this person planted over there two small vineyards and he has a little winery there. Until today he comes every Monday to there, he does his stuff in his pace. He has this little little room he's, he does this thing.

Petachya Witenstein: 34:45

And the way he started making wine was actually when he was getting close to you, this guy, in Russia, and there wasn't any way to get any wine and anyone was looking for getting to get wine. So this, I heard this story. I'm not I don't know about historic details, but whoever would look to get wine, the the KGB would look for him and know that he's looking for Jewish. I guess they knew where to track someone who was Jewish and looking for wine, right? So eventually he got a hold of a grapevine and he planted it outside his window and trained it into his window and he literally made wine for Kiddush from his window. That was his first vine that he planted.

Yaacov Singer: 35:27

I just want to say it. I feel like I'm listening to the podcast itself and enjoying wine at the same time. I feel like I'm drinking wine listening to a wine podcast.

Petachya Witenstein: 35:37

Does it taste so different than when you tasted it?

Yaacov Singer: 35:39

last, doesn't it? I don't know, maybe it needs to open a bit. I don't know.

Petachya Witenstein: 35:42

I didn't taste it yet I just want to say it's fantastic listening to a podcast with you talking to Simon, I would listen to this podcast.

Yaacov Singer: 35:52

It's fun.

Petachya Witenstein: 35:53

So this carignan is about 30 years old. Yep, the vine In a very unique spot. It's like the corner, the top highest part in Bet Meir, looking over to the, to the ocean pretty much, and this vineyard I started because of teaching yeshiva there. I this year got a hold of it, I got in charge of it and we're starting really starting to to re revive it because it's not. It's getting a little bit old, but it didn't give so much fruit this year. We had like maybe 30 kilos. It used to give about 300.

S. Simon Jacob: 36:30

This year, for some reason, a lot of the vines gave very small amounts. There was a definite decrease in yield. I don't know why exactly there was a definite decrease in yield. I don't know why exactly, but you said that this is wine and people and what have you. The country is like after October 7th is really hurting. The harvests were done before that, the year after which is 2023, or 2023, I guess, or 2024, 2024. Yeah, 2024. The harvest was like almost sad. It just was not giving the same amount of fruit as it had. Not that it was suddenly, you know, it's just the mood that it's in at the moment. That's interesting, and it was across many, many winemakers that I spoke to said that Also just the fields were not kept up like they usually are.

Yaacov Singer: 37:49

A lot of farmers didn't have staff to work the fields. Where we got from. They said 80% of their crop is non-existent. This year they're only dealing with 20%.

Petachya Witenstein: 38:01

I actually spoke today to our guy from the vineyard over there, yichiel. Yeah, he got guys from Thailand.

Yaacov Singer: 38:09

Oh really.

Petachya Witenstein: 38:09

Yeah, just now. So they're doing, hopefully the. He sounded very hopeful, which is good, because last year was tough. It was yeah, you saw it on him. Yeah, you saw it on him. I was like these guys are like growing grapevines. How could they be so tense? Sorry for saying it.

S. Simon Jacob: 38:27

No, it's true, it was very hard, it was because between the bombs dropping and all the workers going into Miloim I mean people were in Miloim for 200 days 300 days. I mean it's crazy Our wine garden was also, and what are your thoughts about this one? This is not typical for me of a Carignan. No A Carignan is usually extremely intensely tannin. This has some tannins. It has some acid as well, but it's much more fruity, um much more fruity, yeah and uh, and it's also kind of candy-ish.

Petachya Witenstein: 39:10

You know, there's like kind of a candy. I'm trying to get that smell. What is it? Candy like toffee, maybe like something like caramel, maybe a little bit burnt? Yeah, has it gotten more fruity from the past.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:20

I don't recall this, either right months ago, yeah, yep, I don't know. I didn't taste it originally, but the finish is is is quite long okay so the thing that's cool is it's really nicely balanced. The front of the palate is nice, the mid palate is nice and it's got a long finish as it goes through, I'm still, I'm still tasting it, yeah, and it's um, which is, you know, really nicely done it's also a natural fermentation and uh.

Yaacov Singer: 39:54

No additives, also not cooked, no sulfites and uh did you mention that you pruned these actual vines, that you took care of these vines? Yeah?

Petachya Witenstein: 40:04

these vines are the ones I. There's the only vine that right now I'm pruning and taking care of, dealing with the water and the other stuff that involved in it, so it's very exciting so, as you see, the more he's involved in the bottle, you see just the more flavors there are.

Yaacov Singer: 40:21

It comes out with the human grape connection, yakov is the marketer.

Petachya Witenstein: 40:31

You're noticing that he does his work amazing. He really is. Listen, artists, how do you say? Artists starve right?

Yaacov Singer: 40:43

Yeah, I'm just taking his art.

Petachya Witenstein: 40:45

I'm enjoying his art the way we started it, because I wasn't planning to get into this thing at all, because I was making wine, enjoying it, lovely to drink it, giving to everyone, throwing parties. And he and me we were flying together in England to England, the whole family, for our sister-in-law's bar mitzvah, son's bar mitzvah, and on the plane he's like listen, you got to sell your wine. I'm an artist, I make the stuff.

Yaacov Singer: 41:14

Going to my perspective to cut you off for a second, sorry. He's been making wine now for four years and he's my brother-in-law, so we eat a lot of the same meals together At my in-law's house. We'll both be there for Shabbos and I'm the recipient of this wine every week. I'm just enjoying it. I'm loving this wine and I notice I can't get this wine anywhere. It's unique. You're not finding this, like you said. Noticed like I can't get this wine anywhere. It's it's unique. You're not finding this, like you said, like you could tell a castel. You could tell, uh, you could tell the patagia amazing. And it's uh, yeah. And eventually I said this this gotta, this has to get out there. This wine has to get out there.

Yaacov Singer: 42:00

And what's interesting is is that there's actually been a lot of people who said the same, say the same sentence like, like once they they're drinking this, it's like it's a whole nother uh, a whole nother world in wine, like it's not. So someone actually I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing someone's like he tasted this. He's like it doesn't taste like wine. He's like it's missing the wine. He's like it doesn't taste like wine. He's like it's missing the wine taste. I like that. You're probably referring to the wood flavor or sulfites, whatever it might be, but it's definitely it's a unique.

S. Simon Jacob: 42:37

No, it's definitely. I don't know what he meant by that. It's definitely wine. I think it's not what he was used to, I know.

Yaacov Singer: 42:42

I know it's not the characteristics. Yeah.

Petachya Witenstein: 42:46

One thing I like to do with people who are not so experienced in lots of wines but they try to describe just in a practical way where you taste the sulfites is. I say, take a wine you like the Hans sulfites, the Fiat Tekken and drink it together with wine without, and you really get the idea of where the sulfites are hitting you and the different little bit of a metallic taste, slight metallic taste, which the sulfites are adding. Now, the better the wine is, they're able to. I don't want to sound too extreme and say to disguise it, but it blends in and you don't taste it too much, which that's obviously what we're trying to do.

Petachya Witenstein: 43:26

I do have a theory that a lot of wines are overwooded. Yeah, because they put too much sulfites, because they have to protect the wine and the wood. This is my palate's opinion, if I can say it that way, the wood is able to sort of disguise the sulfite, the off-taste of the sulfite, which is why some of these wines they taste very layered and very nice, but there's something happening that is like some type of a rough taste or feeling maybe, and the wood is sort of like disguising it.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:00

To have the wood express itself so much so that you can taste the wood. That's not the goal of making good wine, but you know there are some wines that are like that.

Yaacov Singer: 44:11

Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:11

So yeah.

Yaacov Singer: 44:13

Would you like to? Should we open up the Argumano?

S. Simon Jacob: 44:15

Yeah, let's go for it.

Yaacov Singer: 44:17

That would be crazy. By the way, I'm just letting you know I could sit here all night. What time do we have to be out?

Petachya Witenstein: 44:24

We're okay, we're good, yeah we're good, we're good, we're good, we're good.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:29

The question is who's carrying us out? No, it's okay, we're not drinking that much.

Petachya Witenstein: 44:34

No, no, no, we're used to these little tastes. Yeah, it's true for all wines. People ask me shall I let it air out? I say, just taste, open it, drink a little bit and taste it, because I think every wine in a certain sense is alive. But when there isn't something preventing the aliveness which I think it's a lot of the sulfates are doing that.

Petachya Witenstein: 45:01

As you're drinking, you really feel the process that's going through and really taste the process that's going through, because we manage the oxygen so well. Sometimes it's not even exposed enough to oxygen, right, but when we're trying to describe what oxygen does you spoke about it a little bit before yeah, I like saying as, just to help just understand it more is if you have this beautiful fruit and it smells good and delicious, but when it's closed off, there's no exposure to your nose or to open air, then you're not able to get all the good aromas and flavors coming out of it, right, right, if you take a knife and start chopping into it, what you would do is you're actually destroying the fruit by chopping it, but you're actually letting out the aromas and flavors because that's what you're able to get. Similar to that when the wine is getting oxidized. Part of what's happening is that the oxygen is ruining it, but it's really taking it apart, breaking it down, and that breaking down is what exposes the smells and the aromas and the flavors breaking out of it.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:01

The Argaman is really pretty incredible in that it has great tannins. It's great, it's wonderful it is. The finish is still going, but the acid is more present, which is good, and the tannins are more present. I really like this expression of Argaman.

Petachya Witenstein: 46:28

Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:29

I was surprised. I didn't think I would. I really didn't think I would. Why is that? Because of its difficulty to…. Yeah, and also that you know you guys are new at it, and what have you? Thank you. Somebody the person who showed it, you know, gave it to me, promised, I think he promised you that he would share it with me. And he said, well, you know, like, okay, what do you think of it? And I said, and then I tasted it and I went it's not that bad, this is pretty good. And I was pretty surprised, so surprised.

Yaacov Singer: 47:04

So, yeah, he's a good guy how would you rate this on like a, a qualitative level like?

S. Simon Jacob: 47:13

I this expresses a lot of things that a number of people would like. There's some people who are hardcore French wine people who will never go for this. Okay.

Yaacov Singer: 47:29

They just won't.

S. Simon Jacob: 47:31

Number one is because it's got like. It's got a certain amount of I don't want to call it roughness, but because it's natural. It has no preservatives, there's no sulfites, so it's got this natural edginess to it that normally is killed, normally is beaten down, and I kind of like it. So I understand what you're trying to accomplish with it and I like it. I would drink it. It's interesting. My wife has a much better palate than I do and she likes it a lot.

Yaacov Singer: 48:31

We had it here, Really. Yeah, I heard you had it a few, like it was a day after it was open, a few days. Yeah, that also surprised us was the. It surprised me was how long it lasts.

Petachya Witenstein: 48:44

I find it lasts more than once with Sofit. I can't explain it, it doesn't make sense.

S. Simon Jacob: 48:49

I don't know. It didn't last that long for me because we drank it. We had a group of people and everybody went oh, we've got to taste that. And it was gone. So that was.

Petachya Witenstein: 49:02

Actually, this Shabbos I poured myself a cup of two different wine grapes, wines that I made right, and I had this cup sitting and I tasted it Friday night and then after the Sula I tasted a little bit right before I went to sleep.

Petachya Witenstein: 49:18

I tasted a little bit more sitting on the table with the napkin in it and then when the siren went off on Friday night, after everyone's back into bed, I go. I go off and a half sleeping, tasting it, really seeing its evolvement within 24 hours. I finished it by Avdallah and it was like taking this journey, this Shabbos allowed journey, with this cup of wine, these two cups of wine. It was really fantastic.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:45

It's one of the most fun things to do.

Petachya Witenstein: 49:48

The stamp at the top, at the top of the way. Yeah, it's actually carved out from a piece of olive wood is really olive wood, if you like? Wow, cuz we were here this, this, this part?

Yaacov Singer: 50:00

yeah, oh, you have that one, I got it. I want to get one more wine for you to taste. Oh, you got one more.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:10

We have a.

Yaacov Singer: 50:10

Cabernet.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:11

You have a Cab.

Yaacov Singer: 50:13

We have a Cab.

Petachya Witenstein: 50:14

Wow, this is a rollercoaster of a Cab, okay, so usually we're able to manage the mellow lactic fermentation.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:23

Yeah.

Petachya Witenstein: 50:24

We've seemed to miss it with this cab, which resulted with the second fermentation after it was bottled.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:36

Okay, wow.

Petachya Witenstein: 50:37

Yeah, Okay, so it complements it. It actually, in my opinion, transforms definitely more softer and nicer, like the Melodactyl often does, but we've been having a little bit of fizziness. So it's not a pet nut, but it's a little bit fizzy. It's interesting. Yeah, it's alive, exactly, it's something which is just giving its story and you could either be part of the story or say this is not for me, but there's a story going on. I have four cups over here and I'm smelling every one as I'm. They're all developing.

Petachya Witenstein: 51:15

They're developing amazing. I tasted before the Carnian. I had a little bit of that raisin-y smell at the beginning and it sort of matured up. Yeah, even though raisin is sort of it blew off.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:27

Yeah, no, but it blew off and just.

Petachya Witenstein: 51:30

I think that, as we say, the party in the nose, the different smells coming out and going, jumping from one smell to another. And as much as I find a lot of people are very developed on their palate, I've been always very developed on my nose smelling stuff and sensing different stuff and I just find it like, first of all, the liveliness everything's so alive. I'm just really enjoying smelling one by one, jumping through them. It's almost like hearing their story. That could be poetic about it. It's almost like hearing this story.

Yaacov Singer: 52:07

I could be poetic about it. What's interesting to me is how much they open up. I would have thought that wines with sulfites would actually open up a lot because they're more contained and closed in. It needs to aerate and all that, and I thought natural wines would be more. What you open is what you get from the beginning, but I was shocked still how much it develops along the I'm still like how much it develops along the.

S. Simon Jacob: 52:46

I'll tell you why Because the sulfite actually protects the wine from oxidizing somewhat. The natural wines don't have that protection, so they might actually develop more when you open them up, but I don't know.

Yaacov Singer: 53:06

Interesting how are they for you? How are they? This is oh, is that the cab? I'm very curious what your take is on the cab.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:23

It's unlike any cab I've tasted in the past we've been getting that so much I know in a good way. Yeah, no, no, it's not a bad thing, um it's. It's just there is a problem. Yeah, I'll tell you what the problem is.

Yaacov Singer: 53:44

It's too good.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:48

No, no, it's almost unfortunate to put labels on these bottles, because what happens is it's the same thing that happened when I first tasted orange wine. When I first tasted orange wine, I said no thanks. And I asked Yakovoria, why am I reacting like that? And he said because you've drunk a lot of wines. You will find that the people who are real wine drinkers, drink a lot of wine, are not going to be so open to your wines, because when you drink a lot of wine, your brain creates boxes and you put different flavors and different tastes in each of those boxes and when something doesn't fit in a box, your automatic reaction is to reject it. Okay, I'm sure people who are like new wine drinkers taste this stuff and go whoa, this is great. You know, when I've tasted wine in the past, it's been not for me. This tastes good.

S. Simon Jacob: 55:12

I think that that's the reaction you're going to get and I'd be surprised if it isn't. Why do you think that would be? Because it's not like this cab. It doesn't taste like a cab, it does taste like a cab. After you think that would be Because it's not like this cab. It doesn't taste like a cab, it does taste like a cab after you think about it, but your initial reaction is that it doesn't taste like a cab and it's like oh, you know well, this doesn't fit into the boxes that I have prepared for tasting this. I'm just telling you what my opinion is.

Yaacov Singer: 55:44

Yeah.

Petachya Witenstein: 55:47

I think that a lot of the when you're saying it doesn't taste like a cab, I feel like this is what cab tastes like, if not for us interrupting it with a lot of other stuff. In other words, if you, we'll keep this, we'll leave this bottle here for you.

Petachya Witenstein: 56:03

Open another cab yes and try seeing where, where they link together, where they're the same and where they're not right. And I think, I think that we've been getting a lot, of, a lot of people like so this is so, this is cab. Like what you're saying. This is our malo, doesn't, you know, taste so much finer than I've ever tasted. It's almost like it. It's almost like I don't have to force it down. I don't mean it to sound in a negative way, but we've compared our wines also to very I'm not going to say very expensive, but nice for sure 200-bottle wines and again and again we're getting something which is a bit more pure.

Petachya Witenstein: 56:37

Some people would consider it a bit less body. Although I have a little bit of a debate, which I'm happy to hear what you think about it, I feel like a lot of times people are confusing a complexity and body with the wood and a little bit of a rough taste, a rough going down. Sometimes people consider something more sophisticated when it's harder for them to drink If they have to force themselves I'm not talking about experienced wine drinkers, but some people when they're drinking something and they have to force themselves not to make a face, then this must be good, because everyone else says it's good, and now this is obviously what's the right. You know what I mean.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:14

Okay, so one of the things that's special about Israel is that the varietals that come from Israel, there's some, there's some incredible varietals that were like argamon you taste it, but there's one called tabuki, so there's him dolly, there's another Jen dolly, and there's also him and dolly as well, as well as one Chendali, chendali. Yeah, there, most of the wines that came out of Israel besides Argaman, which was created recently, were wines that were lighter and brighter and more drinkable in a warm climate. I mean, now we're warm climate here. Now, with air conditioning, is not like the warm climate was a hundred years ago, when there wasn't air conditioning. When there's, when it's hot outside, you could either drink something that's a little bit lighter and fruitier or you can drink a heavy cab. What do you think people are going to drink? They're not going to drink a heavy cab.

S. Simon Jacob: 58:38

In the middle of winter you know, like last week here, this last week here, which was the middle of winter, where the temperature went down into the 40s, yeah, cabs are great, but when it goes up to the 80s by the end of this week, the last thing you want to start drinking is a heavy, heavy wine. So these are a little lighter. A heavy wine, so these are a little lighter. Even this cab is a little bit lighter, but it's really lovely. It's fruity, it's a lovely wine.

Petachya Witenstein: 59:22

Thank you.

S. Simon Jacob: 59:24

I think you're going to get a lot of takers, takers, takers.

Yaacov Singer: 59:30

Takers. Oh yeah, People are going to want to drink this wine. I'm still curious why you think that the first time drinkers would like it over the meaning. Why, if it's your first?

S. Simon Jacob: 59:41

time Because I'm a cab lover. Yeah, so when I drink, why, if it's your first? Because I'm a cab lover, yeah, so when I drink this, it's too light, it's not. It's not um the typical cab, heavy duty cab, super fruit forward. Um, this is fruity, but it's it's lighter, I like it.

Yaacov Singer: 1:00:07

But people who are like starting out. You're saying they don't have a box yet what they're expecting, so it would.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:15

The people who are starting out. A person would drink this and go. This isn't so tough to drink. This is nice. It's a pleasure, isn't that a funny?

Yaacov Singer: 1:00:21

statement I'm a pleasure. Isn't that a funny statement? Though I'm still trying. Isn't it a funny statement? Yes, it's a crazy statement.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:28

But typically you'd buy a French wine, it wouldn't be approachable for 20 years. You'd have to keep that wine in your cellar and hope to God that it would mature properly. Okay, typically those French wines are good for the first six months a year, all right. But they don't. They're drinkable, but they don't really show themselves. Yet.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:54

There's all sorts of extra levels of flavors and tertiary flavors, and what have you like? Chocolate and tobacco and all the rest of these other things that come At the beginning. They don't have that, but at least they're drinkable. Then they go into what's called a dumb phase and they shut down. And when you drink them, then they're nothing. They're just nothing. They're either acid, or they just really don't have a taste acid, or they just really don't have a taste.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:29

There's tannins and stuff that just are not pleasant unless you swirl them for hours and leave them open for hours. And what have you to try to combat that? But that doesn't bring out the tertiary flavors. That just lowers the hurdle of being able to get in and even put it in your mouth and not spit it out. And then after 20 years, 25 years, it might have developed these incredible tertiary flavors with chocolate and this and that and what have you. And there's some wines that I've tasted that are just amazing like that. But that's crazy. Why should I buy something and have to sit around for 20 years before I can drink it? And it's drinkable?

Petachya Witenstein: 1:02:16

I have a question for you about this Anything. Do you feel that or think that the view that a lot of wine drinkers have is, if this wine, they look at a bottle and like, oh, it's 2024. Like they have expectations that a wine must be only good if it's like from 2000 and before that, no?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:02:35

it's ridiculous.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:02:37

It's like French right.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:02:39

No, some people have that attitude about it, but the truth is that that's not the way wine works at all I get messages like that all the time.

Yaacov Singer: 1:02:46

They're like oh for a 2024. Yeah, for 2024.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:02:51

Yeah, but the problem that you have is the older wine gets, it doesn't get any better, unless it's made to get better, and most of the wine isn't. So you can take a bottle of Barkan and that's from 1998, and it's. You can open it up and it can be absolute rubbish. It's not about that. It's about there's certain wines that can age and certain wines that can't. And if you've got a wine that can age, it's the same thing with whites. There are certain whites. People realize that whites don't age.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:03:39

Okay, most people feel that, like a rosé, you have to drink a rosé within the year it was made. After that it's not good anymore. Or if you drink a white wine, white wine might be good for two years. It's not good after that. That's not true, it's. It depends on the winemaker. It depends on what he's made. There's a wine by yakov oria that's a 2009 uh, semi-on that tastes fresh and delicious and wonderful. They're italian wines that if you drink them the first year, the first two years, they taste like water, and it isn't until two or three years into it that all of a sudden, they've developed other flavors and they're amazing wines and you know that's wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:04:34

The other thing is that there's no good wines or bad wines. I mean there are, to be quite honest, there really are. I mean there are, to be quite honest, there really are. But overall it's not about what somebody else says, it's about what you taste. It's subjective. There's no. You know, it's like a scam that people come back and say, oh, this is like there are some wines that you'll taste, that somebody will say to you like, as an example, some of the French wines that are pretty crazy, that taste like graphite or that taste like ink, that develop into something that's like really kind of special, but 99% of the wines don't have that sort of characteristic, characteristic or capability.

Yaacov Singer: 1:05:31

so I know people always they, and a lot of people. I'll give the wine to any wine. You'll hear it a lot. Yeah, they'll drink wine and they're like, wow, like I really enjoy this bottle, but hey, I'm no connoisseur, so, like, what do I know? You know what's good for you? That's what the whole thing is. You know, like, if you like it if you're enjoying it, enjoy it.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:05:54

Go for it. Guys, go for it. There's a lot of wines that I don't like, but I enjoy wines that are interesting. These are interesting wines, so I enjoy them.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:06:11

I think it's very important that you're saying this stuff, because I feel like a lot of the young world, like we're surrounded a lot with the younger guys, and a lot of people are like they have like this fear of missing out from the sophisticated generation, who are drinking what they believe in tradition and what they think is considered a good wine, and, instead of enjoying the wine they like, they're busy trying to taste wines that people are telling them that it's good and they never develop enjoyment for wine, even though they could, because they never experienced something which is suitable for them.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:06:44

You know what I want some more of the Argoman.

Yaacov Singer: 1:06:48

I have the Saramashkin as well.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:06:53

It comes with one of my favorite jobs. This is the Argoman.

Yaacov Singer: 1:06:57

That's what you wanted, right.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:06:57

I want the Argoman in this one and I want the cab in this one. Sure.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:07:03

Thank you, jakob, you're getting it, I'm so nervous every time.

Yaacov Singer: 1:07:07

Why I? Just because you know I don't have that muscle memory yet.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:11

No, no, it's okay, it's okay. I don't want to miss the, the edge of that, the widest part of the mouth.

Yaacov Singer: 1:07:18

Yeah, there it is. Which one would you like?

Petachya Witenstein: 1:07:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, just the cognac. It's like this curious. I'm so curious about it, I can't figure it out. Yet One second.

Yaacov Singer: 1:07:31

I feel like it's probably opened up. When we were looking for a name for our winery, we went through every biblical term there was. We searched everything that has to do with wine. It's all taken Choshen, the Eifod, the Tabernacle.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:07:47

Yeah, I just got to say, if you're ready to bring this up, that it's a bit weird for me to have the name of the winery under my name. Like I call up the guy dealing with some part of the wine, so he's like so, what winery are you? I'm like Yekev Tachia. Okay, good, what's your name? Tachia's like oh, it's that guy who called it on his name. Listen, it wasn't my choice, I would give up the name. You know the other people, the people who are doing the salad.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:08:16

They said it's a good name, he started going by.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:08:18

Masha I know, but it became too much, it's so beautiful.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:08:21

I appreciate it. I like the name also. But it was actually an interesting story about that because the top of the stamp, so when Annie designed this thing, the stance, the top of it, right. So this is a P, a P in ancient Hebrew, but turns out that it looks more like a J, like some interesting J. So it's like Hashem said it's Yaakov People called him J for years. So it's like JP. Hashem put it in Mishamayim. It's amazing, it's really amazing. I guess we could also go for JP. It also works.

Yaacov Singer: 1:09:01

I'm like the Pur, so I guess we could also go for JP. It also works. I'm like the Purim story in this wine.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:09:05

You know you find me hidden in the bottle, somewhere, hidden in the cellar somewhere drinking the bottle.

Yaacov Singer: 1:09:13

That's me, I'm also there.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:09:16

Another thing about the enjoyment of making wine is there's nothing more enjoyment when you come to the wine and you taste wines. We're not big spitters to say the least. Yeah, wine's meant for drinking, and we taste, and taste, and taste.

Yaacov Singer: 1:09:36

Yeah, but you really learn a lot. You start from when the wine's just developing and you really learn a lot, like you start from when the wine's like just developing and you really follow the process. It's so amazing to be there through the whole story.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:09:49

It really is special to do that. You know, I often tell people they say you know like, when you buy a bottle of wine, you know, like, how long should you wait before you open it and what have you? I never buy one bottle, I always buy at least two, and what I do is I drink them at different times. As soon as I get a bottle, I'm happy to open it. I don't wait forever, unless it's a crazy bottle that I know is not going to be drinkable yet.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:10:18

But I normally open it and I taste it, and I taste it through a period of time. I taste it over a week, or what have you. And then a year later, what have you? I taste the second bottle, or, if I get a case, I'll drink them periodically and because I like to see how a wine develops over a period of time, and that's, that's the interesting part about it. It's like if you only met a kid when they were two and they were the cutest kids in the world, it would be wonderful. But unless you meet them later and really see what the kid turns into, you're really seeing a very stifled view of that kid.

Yaacov Singer: 1:11:08

It's another human-grape connection.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:11:10

It's totally Very interesting theory. I want to ask you what you think about it. It's known that when the Gemara speaks about wine, they have to dilute it.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:11:20

Yeah.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:11:21

And I was wondering, tell me if this makes just a theoryara speaks about wine. They had to dilute it, yeah, and I was wondering, tell me if this makes just a theory I'm throwing out. I'm wondering let's say that there was a strain of yeast that was strong enough to eat sugars up to 30-40%. So if you would have very sweet grapes and the yeast would not die out from their own alcohol environment, then theoretically we should be able to have wine coming up to 30-40%, which is pretty much like when you drink a scotch, which wouldn't be possible to drink a cup of Kiddush or Four Kaisers without diluting it. That would be a nice explanation for what they experienced then, as wine wasn't able to drink, wasn't able to drink without diluting it, and if that I mean it's a little bit close in history to say that such a strain of yeast was distinct, instinct, extinct, extinct. It's not so far away, but if that would be true, that would be an interesting explanation for that. What do you think about it? I think it's a cool explanation.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:12:26

I always wondered, because the truth is that I've never met, I've never heard of a winemaker who made wines that you needed to dilute among the Sfardi Reveille, that you needed to dilute among the Sfardi Reveille they don't want to drink. They're very careful about which wines they drink, because they want it to be fully wine and they don't want it to be diluted wine. That's the one that was even more strange to me, because I said I've never seen any winery put water into wine in order to make it. You know less Right.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:13:10

In fact, the Pasek considers someone who's a cheater Yep, the Pasek says yeah. Your wine. You're selling wine. You're putting water in it. That's like one of the examples that Pasek speaks about someone who's cheating in business. So it is an interesting thing, but with this theory it's just interesting. I don't know. Your audience is probably very smart people. Maybe someone would have any. It's not about being smart it's about.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:13:39

there might be people who have more experience in it, but I think there are different theories. Where would you like to be in five years?

Petachya Witenstein: 1:13:53

So I don't know about five years, but our vision for next year is we're going to do more than we did this year and I'm specifically looking to very excited actually to experience in lots of different also experiments, but also letting stuff develop. And let's say, for example, if we have this Argamon, then I want to make a Rosé from the same Argamon and have someone who enjoys the Argamon and also enjoys a good rosé, seeing what he thinks about them together I don't mean, it's going to be interesting to make a rosé out of an Argaman.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:14:32

Yeah, but Argaman itself as a single varietal grape was also interesting to make in the first place.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:14:36

Right 100%.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:14:37

I think that people are open, especially a lot of the younger guys who are not like don't. I think that people are open, especially a lot of the younger guys who are not, like you said, the boxers. They're looking for something a little bit different. They're looking for something that's going to, like you said, it'll strike them, it'll taste good. It doesn't have to be the most sophisticated, but it'll taste good. If it's a Argoman, if it's an over-red rosé, Because Argoman is probably going to be an over-red rosé, like a much deeper rosé, but it'll still have that lightish acidity, like the liveliness that a rosé would have, and I think that would be appealing to a lot of people who are looking for something a little bit different, specifically being natural fermentation and no added sulfites. I think that would be a nice. That's just one example we have.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:15:20

What I would like to do is to try to get a hold of Originally we thought about four, I don't know why we decided four.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:15:26

We'll get four different types of grapes every year and experiment with them so we can actually see which grapes we like the most and try working not only with what the market likes, which that also we'll try doing which is typically like the Cabernet Merlot. You sort of can't go wrong with it. But we would like to try with lots of different types as much as we could get our hands on. And also it's important us, the yes be involved a certain extent with the guy growing the grapes, with the vineyards 100%. And it's a big challenge because they're very a lot of these people are growing the grapes, are looking for you not to be in their business. They don't want you messing with them. So it's a little bit of a challenge. But I think we have some guys inside who are some guys working for us right now and he's involved in that area and we're hoping, with Zadashan, to get a hold of different varietals and different types. It'll be good, zad Hashem, to get a hold of different varietals and different uh, different types. It'll be good, zad Hashem.

Yaacov Singer: 1:16:25

Yeah, just to add to that, he also wants, besides for the Argaman and then the Argaman Rose, he's also going to serve um sourdough bread made from the Argaman yeast. Yeah, that'd be cool.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:16:40

So you get like a full right and then we have the meat. If we ever do like a little bit of a, like a eating type of barbecue right.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:16:49

So the meat is gonna be marinated with with the wine yep. The bread's gonna be fermented with the yeast from the wine yep. And the cow itself ate, you know, the leftover of the grapes. And also, we actually have vinegar. This is not a mistake vinegar. We actually created vinegar from using the stems and we actually had to add sugar because we wanted to get a strong vinegar. I have some at home. I gave you a bottle of that. It's the most delicious vinegar.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:17:19

That's a hot thing Today. It's even more than wine. If you can make good vinegar, really delicious vinegar, that's a hot thing Today. It's even more than wine. If you can make good vinegar Really, yes, that's a very hot thing. Chefs, all of these chef restaurants are looking for vinegar.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:17:30

Yeah, okay. So I'll tell you another cool thing about it. We actually have some of it fermenting with this. I'll use wood chips because I'm happy with it. So it's oak, but it's Israeli oak I. So it's oak, but it's Israeli oak. I chopped it down myself. It's delicious. I cooked it in the oven, I baked it to the right. That's a very delicious nutty flavors. In fact, I was cooking in the oven and my wife walks in. She's like are you making cookies? Like no, I'm cooking wood. She's like she's used to my crazy stuff. She's like, oh, okay, and it smelled delicious, right. And that was it smelled delicious right yeah, so we have some of that.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:18:05

Uh, actually use it every now and then.

Yaacov Singer: 1:18:07

Who's your customer base, our customer base right now, my, the, my target audience is the american community mostly. Do you have an? Ability to sell to america no, so not in the american community here in in israel. Okay, because that's just the people I know. That's where I could spread the word, that's where I could Beit. Shemesh where? So? Mostly in Yerushalayim, and also Beit Shemesh how about Renanah? So I haven't gone out there yet. But what the American community there?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:18:37

They have a British community Anglo. Instead of saying American Anglo, I would just go for Anglo. I guess that's more I'm American side, yeah, or?

Yaacov Singer: 1:18:45

Foxton, yeah, but no, I see the world as you have anyone who's not?

Petachya Witenstein: 1:18:50

yeah sure the Cleveland the Rabbit was. We used to be close to who Cleveland the Rabbit yeah, he's, isn't.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:18:57

That Tells no he's no.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:19:01

Cleveland the Rabbit's an interesting guy, yeah, but he has his bases in Renana. Okay, he was a Holocaust survivor, I believe he didn't have kids, but his stepson is a rabbit right now. Okay, very nice.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:19:14

No, but there's a lot of Anglos in Renana, Herzliya, Renana, what have you? Yeah?

Yaacov Singer: 1:19:19

I would love to get out there Also. The Israeli community? I'm not, it's just, if I have to take a starting point on where to start with my sales, it's going to be who you know, yeah, who I know, and yeah, or have an easier time connecting to.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:19:36

So what's your volume like of what you produce right now?

Yaacov Singer: 1:19:41

So this year we produced roughly 1,500 bottles Okay For sale.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:19:46

Yes, I get it. You produce more than that, but you're keeping some of them back.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:19:52

Right, not everything we're able to let out in the market, for sure, not Even like right now we have with the Cabernet, which started out amazing. And then, surprise, surprise, natural fermentation, second malolactic fermentation, which we were able to control I thought I was under control on that one, but we're learning, yeah. So not everything we're going to release. We want to release only highest quality and only stuff which we think tastes delicious and something which someone would taste it and enjoy.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:20:24

Okay, the non-sulfite is there's some people who are really really allergic to sulfites and wine just absolutely tanks them them. So, because you don't have any sulfite in it, I mean there's some issues about how well it'll age, but most people buy bottles of wine and drink them, so you know that's. They don't sit them and put them in a cellar for, you know, six months or a year or something. So that might you. That might actually be useful.

Yaacov Singer: 1:21:03

Right, we're still curious how long these age for we don't have any.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:21:06

We have them last year.

Yaacov Singer: 1:21:07

Right, we know they go at least a year and a half at this point.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:21:12

No, that's all you can do. You can only go by. The winemakers I know, who are really, really experienced, have made thousands upon thousands of bottles and when they ask them, they go. This is a new wine for me. I don't know how long it's going to last. That's you know.

Yaacov Singer: 1:21:28

You learn on the job.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:21:29

Yeah, that's what part of the deal is. Yeah, what about this Merlot? What are you going to tell me about the Merlot?

Petachya Witenstein: 1:21:36

Oh, the Merlot. First thing about the Merlot was harvest earlier than I wanted.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:21:42

Okay, that's as a preparation wait here pour that, into the, what you call it, in the bucket. Yep, I don't want to say too much, but I have a feeling you're going to be like.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:22:00

This is not the Merlot you're used to tasting. Yep, um I. I don't want to say too much, but I have a feeling you're going to be like this is not the Merlot you're used to tasting that's not going to be strange to me tonight.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:22:10

How's the? How's the Merlot?

Petachya Witenstein: 1:22:12

it needs to open up a bit more, but it's starting out nicely yeah, our Petit Syrah, is you got to tell?

Yaacov Singer: 1:22:17

them you got to tell them the story of the.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:22:20

No, by the way it came out, it was a very late harvest and Nadav had a group of students from the States, I'm pretty sure, yeah and they wanted to help out in the vineyards and help Yeshua and everything. So they came to his vineyard midnight and did a whole harvest after his machine went, already after Yatir's machine went. So we had all these bundles of grape. Half of them were already ripped off, so already some of them started fermenting. On the vines it was already like 32, 32 bricks, very high, very sweet, and I make, we make this wine, and one night one of the vats we use it was actually a Demijan, because it was a small amount blew up from the pressure. It hit the ceiling. It was lots of fun.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:23:11

The cap blew off of it the cap blew off and the wine squirted two meters high and hit the ceiling. We have in the wine area in the ceiling, a big splatter. That was one of the inventions. But this is actually one of the wines that my. This is the example where you're saying before about people should drink wines that they enjoy. My wife doesn't like wine in general. It's a very sweet wine she'll enjoy, but this wine she's like can I have some more? Like I took it out, I say I think you'll enjoy this one. She tasted it and she wants some more. And she wants some more and this is like a real. It's a sweet wine but it's not like a. It has also a lot of tannins and a very dark color to it. The Petit Syrah Right, it doesn't have a sugar sweetness to it, no, no it's not a sugar sweetness, it's just such an interesting wine, it's like what you call it.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:24:05

It's probably like a port. It's like port, but without the porty smell, without the oxidized port, without that. Just a very much heavier, much thicker, just a very nice wine. I can drink it also very cold and also room temperature, Both are delicious cool what's your thoughts on the merlot?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:24:36

it's also. It's definitely a merlot. That's so funny.

Yaacov Singer: 1:24:42

I always say that, I say it's definitely a Merlot. That's so funny. I always say that.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:24:44

I say it's so Merlot-y. It's definitely a Merlot, but it's also not like any Merlot I've ever tasted. It has all of the little trademark things of a Merlot, but it's a little different.

Yaacov Singer: 1:25:11

These are all slightly different wines. Do you feel they share a certain characteristic or are they all just?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:25:18

I think they do. I think they do, I think they're, um, I think they do share a characteristic. I think, um, if you gave me two wines or three wines from other people and one of your wines was in it, I could recognize it immediately. But that's not a bad thing, that's a great thing.

Yaacov Singer: 1:25:39

Well, I could recognize it, because, I mean, I guess it depends why you're recognizing it.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:25:43

No, no, I think you're right that not having the sulfur, sulfites or preservatives gives your, gives your wines a taste that I'm not used to. Not bad at all, in fact, it's very pleasurable.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:26:10

Yeah, I like to call it almost in a French way, pierre, like Pierre, make it sound a little bit French. Yeah, it's interesting. I've tasted other wines without sulfite and I think the people, when they're not their expertise is not in wine without sulfite they often do other stuff to cover on the fact it doesn't have sulfite. So the fact that this also doesn't have wood and also has no sulfite, but we made, as you can see, with the colors, they're totally not oxidized, the colors have stayed fresh and nice. And I think when you have a wine which is without sulfites but we're not careful with the oxygen management, then the fact that it's without sulfite doesn't always pronounce itself as much as it could, because a lot of the work, a lot of the benefits you got from not having sulfite was already ruined by not being careful with the oxygen. So only if you manage the oxygen very well until someone's drinking it, then you really get what the non-sulfite pronunciation gives you. So I think that's one thing that we've worked very hard on.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:27:23

These are not just run-of-the-mill wines. Each one is, like, really interesting. Yeah, there are a lot of wines that are available on the market and these are different, so that's cool.

Yaacov Singer: 1:27:38

Yeah, there's actually something when, when people I wonder if you experienced this also, because you said you made a few wines with Yakov Aurya Like when I sell the wine, there's so much that's gone into the making of the wine and so much that I know about Patachia and so much about the story and all his ideas and theories and creativity and how I saw it play out. And almost like when I sell the wine to people and people just say like, oh, here, I'll take two, and they just take it and I feel like hold on, I want to tell you everything that's going on in it.

Yaacov Singer: 1:28:16

But it's like oh, here, let me just try a different wine, and they just drink it, either good or bad, and they move on. And I get so like pained by that. I was like I wish you knew. I want to sit down with everyone, just talk to them, explain them about the wine there. You know what I?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:28:31

mean, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. All right, I know exactly what you mean because when, when you taste something that really hits home and you share it with somebody who also feels the same way about it, it's just incredible. One word Shabbat table. And I'm talking to a couple of people who are really into wines, and we're all into wines, and what have you. And I'm talking to a couple of people who are really into wines, and we're all into wines, and what have you. And the rest of the table just shuts down and goes God, when are they going to stop talking about wine? So in those instances, I go I'm sorry, we've got to back up. Let them you know like and you know how did those.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:29:18

Yankees. Do you know, like I don't know, whatever so crazy. Yeah, all do you know like whatever, yeah, so crazy the yeah, all right, but uh, it's a bit.

Yaacov Singer: 1:29:36

It's a bit lighter than the other one. Uh, I don't know. What I know is that they air out properly, even though they do pick up a bit of a second fermentation. If aired out properly, they really.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:29:53

I think that that's an unusual thing for that cap to have the second fermentation. You just have to.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:29:59

Melodactic fermentation is either. Most places would manage it and put in bacterias, melodactic bacterias, and start the fermentation on its own before they bottle it. Right, I didn't think this would happen and yeah, the truth is, in perspective of keeping the wine aging longer safer in the bottle, I think it actually would help. I have a theory that that might actually help the shelf age Shelf life Shelf life.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:30:33

yeah, as long as the bottles don't burst.

Petachya Witenstein: 1:30:36

Right, no, so the pressure wasn't that strong. No, it doesn't taste. The fizz was a little bit of a. It's a fizz Unusual.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:30:45

No, there's sometimes when you see like a slight fizz in the car, a cup once you open the bottle, but it's like I'm not seeing that. But I am definitely tasting a little bit of a fizz.

Yaacov Singer: 1:30:56

I don't Well this one. We opened it this morning preparation for this. It's cool, wow wow was right.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:31:08

We went through a lot of bottles, so thank you. Thank you very much for being on the kosher terroir and for humoring me, and it's a pleasure for you to be here really enjoyed the conversation.

Yaacov Singer: 1:31:21

It's a pleasure for you to be here. Really enjoyed the conversation. All right, it's been very enjoyable. Thank you very much, pleasure.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:31:36

This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terwa. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you are new to the Kosher Terwa, please check out our many past episodes.