S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome back to The Kosher Terroir, the podcast where we uncork the stories behind the world's finest kosher wines, one bottle at a time. Today, we're taking you deep into the heart of Israel's historic wine country, where ancient tradition meets modern craftsmanship. Nestled in the breathtaking landscapes of the Yatir Forest and the Hebron Heights, La Forêt Blanche Winery has been making waves in the Israeli wine scene with its bold vision, meticulous winemaking and deep-rooted connection to the land.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:05

Joining me for this special two-part conversation is none other than Yaacov Bris, CEO of La Forêt Blanche. With a background in e-commerce and a passion for wine that runs deep, yaakov has played a pivotal role in rebranding and expanding the winery, turning it into a rising star in the world of fine kosher wines. In Part 1, we'll explore Yaacov's journey into the wine industry, the story behind the winery's evocative name and how La Forêt Blanche balances its rich biblical heritage with cutting-edge winemaking techniques. We'll also dive into the significance of their terroir and what makes their wines stand out in an increasingly competitive market. If you're driving, focus on the road ahead. If you're home, pour yourself a glass of wonderful kosher wine, sit back and get ready to discover the essence of La Forêt Blanche, where history, passion and innovation converge in every bottle. Yaakov, welcome to The Kosher Terroir. Thank you for welcoming me to the winery. It's called La Forêt Blanche. La Forêt Blanche, la.

Yaacov Bris: 2:19

Forêt Blanche, la Forêt Blanche, it's basically the white forest. La Forêt Blanche, la Forêt Blanche, it's basically the white forest. We're going to speak about the name maybe later in the tour. Great, although it's the first thing you see when you come at the winery in La Forêt Blanche with this beautiful logo and you see the barrels. Basically, it took us, I think, eight months of brainstorming and meetings.

Yaacov Bris: 2:44

Now, if you can imagine Menachem Livni, which is like over 70. Yep, okay, a true Bet HaMikdash, believer, yeah, not believer. We all believe in the building of the Bet HaMikdash, but he's actually, he's ready to do it. He's ready to do it right, 100%. I knew of Menachem back in the old days Great. So can you imagine Menachem sitting at a table with Bruno, a winemaker, french native, french educated culture, the whole and coming like in Israel, 35, 40 years ago, 35 years ago, sitting around the table? Now, he of course like Bruno's, like religious and, but his beliefs are not that way. Yeah, okay. And the young guy like me that understands nothing about that. All he wants to do? It was to build a. All he wants to do is to build a brand. Then he wants to be recognized worldwide once he tells the story. It's like the three complete opposite directions and each one wants the whole decision-making process going his way.

Yaacov Bris: 4:03

And I'm like the first thing I did when I came into uh the company in 2018 was to say, hey guys, we need to brand uh. We can't just go around and grow this uh winery to be very big if we're not going to brand it. Give it a story, not just like a family name is very nice, so you, you can't brand it as a terroir winery or like specific, if you're not going into a broader story about the area. And my idea was to give it a French name, like not to hide our identity of the local. You know geopolitics or whatever. It wasn't the purpose. It was just to be authentic, to be as authentic as possible, and we knew we wanted to have to do with Yatir Forest because we're right next to Yatir Forest. The winery was going to move here. It was all planned, the building was existing already.

Yaacov Bris: 4:58

Now anything about Yatir Forest is copyrighted, not the forest, not the Yatir Forest. Everything is copyrighted. Not the forest, not the Yatir forest. Everything is copyrighted, all the Yishuvim names. Everything is copyrighted by Karma, mizrahi and Yatir. You can't call it anything, anything. You can't use the name Yatir.

Yaacov Bris: 5:14

Now we knew we wanted to have to do with the forest. So I said let's go to French. You know wine and French seems to be very good. We're French. Our audience is not going to be necessarily exclusively French, but even Americans would identify to the French.

Yaacov Bris: 5:33

At that time there was all kinds of wineries coming out with French names without mentioning anyone French name, without mentioning anyone, you know. So we said like, it's possible, it's accepted, people are relating to it Like nobody's, like, rejecting the idea. So we wanted to have to do with the forest, which is La Forêt, the forest. But we wanted to add an adjective because it was too like. La Forêt is just like too like there's no, you know, there's nothing authentic that you can explain, no, there's nothing that it ties to Right. Like it could be this forest or it could be that forest, like you know, there's no specific attachment to it.

Yaacov Bris: 6:15

And like and we're debating and debating and voting and inviting people, and it became like a whole list of names and we're, every two weeks we have meetings and phone calls and Zoom calls, you know, menachem, bruno, me, annie, selby, and then we brought in people and journalists and people in different industries, like we related and this thing is going like, and at some point we said, okay, enough is enough. We need to decide today because we need to go live, we need to start selling the wine. So we're sitting at a table, um, and I can bruno, me, annie, whatever, voting. Each one voted and blanche was part of the part of the possibilities. There was other other, there were other names. Blanche, at this point of the discussion, had absolutely nothing to do. No story, no, it's just like nice, you know? Yeah, nothing more. Menachem Livni stands up and he said guys, I'm fed up with you, I'm done. Give it any name you want, I have nothing to do with this thing.

Yaacov Bris: 7:23

You know, wine is so holy. It's something you bring to the Beit HaMikdash, it's like it represents holiness in the Jewish tradition Kiddush Chagim, Brit, milah, like wedding, everything is all about the wine. And you're taking this to like, to this, uh, to this, uh, um, um, crazy level, crazy level, and and. But he said like, uh, uh. French for him is like uh, not a dirt, uh, to my eyes, like uh, um, it's like tumor. And you're taking impurity in pure language. It's like impure, it's like it's not, like it doesn't represent anything.

Yaacov Bris: 8:04

He said, guys, okay, I'm going to the restroom and I'm out of here. He's going to the restroom, he's coming back and he says, like you know, the Beit HaMikdash was called in the Melachim, yar Levannon. And even at Beit Yar Levannon you say like, well, this is like name and it has a meaning, the Beit HaMikdash. And you're going to this impure language, like what is. And I said to him, what did you just say? The Beit HaMikdash was called Yahr Levanon, so exactly. And I said to him oh, we got it. La Forêt Blanche is Yara, lebanon, lebanon, milachon, la Vange and Balbin, avonotem Shal, yisrael, yara, la Forêt, la Forêt Blanche, we got it, that's it. And he's like holy Moses, we have a name, yeah that's the way great, that's the way we roll.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:03

I was wondering how. The only confusion I had with it and when people initially hear the name, they always think of it as being white wines Right, because it's white, yeah, but that said, I love the name, I think it's great, I love the branding, I like Annie's work and I love the style of it and it's just beautiful.

Yaacov Bris: 9:26

So she was part of all the discussion and that's how I think the first option of the logo was the logo that we picked. She basically nailed it because our terroir is about David HaMelech. David Amalek was king of Hebron seven years before he became king of Israel. He planted vineyards. It's even said that he planned the architecture of the Beit HaMikdash. He architectured the Beit HaMikdash. He went and bought Harabite, purchased it and he started planning. It's even said that if David Amelech would have built the Beit HaMikdash, it would have been never destroyed. But he actually doesn't get to build it. But you can see through Tehillim. He speaks about wine, he speaks about Beit HaMikdash and he planted a lot of vines.

Yaacov Bris: 10:13

Now, Shlomo HaMelech, when he built the first Beit HaMikdash, needed wine and he basically the wines the v that were planted by David HaMelech in Hebron were used to produce the wine that was brought to the Beit HaMikdash. And you have psukim that say, like you know, shea v'zichro, keyein, halevanon, the wine of Levanon that was going to the Beit HaMikdash. Everywhere in the Tanakh where you say, levanon is about the Beit HaMikdash. So that's the relationship of the logo to David HaMelech, david's harp. Now it's fascinating even further because where the wine was used in the Bet HaMikdash was exactly at the same time of the Levite singing. Mishnah said that you can't pour the wine without the Leviim and you can't have the Leviim singing without pouring the wine. It goes together.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:02

I didn't realize it's David's harp's harp, but that's beautiful david's harp musical notes.

Yaacov Bris: 11:08

yes, okay, that's, that represents the shirama, a lot like the, the 15, like you know, the levite singing well, letters, lfb and the vine that the trees in the forest, like this is the representation, uh, the whole representation of the, of the logo. So so after we decided that that would be the name, we had to have wines that tell the story. We can't just have wines because we have grapes and then we make any wine and then we make up stories about terroirs and different things, and then it goes on we have that grape, so we make that wine. We have to have a flow, make up stories about terroirs and different things, and then it, you know, it goes on. We have that grape, so we make that wine. We have to have a flow and, uh, and the names of the wine have to have to tell that story. And that's how I went on and that this is like my work.

Yaacov Bris: 11:58

Um, later in the process of giving the names to the, because everybody was already tired and said like, if we had for one name, we had like six to eight month discussions then what it's going to be to have like six or seven wines to name. Just figure it out. Yes, okay, it's crazy, I get it. And and then we said that we would have. We would have names, hebrew names, yeah that, speak about the Bet HaMikdash, but from different perspectives.

S. Simon Jacob: 12:31

What motivated the switch to?

Yaacov Bris: 12:33

make such a career shift? Oh, wow. Well, I started working for a US-based company, new York-based company, in 2009. I was a student in Brooklyn back then, so I stayed over on vacation because I didn't want to go back home in France doing nothing and waste my time. So I wanted to start working. So I stayed for vacation and I started looking for a job and I found a job in one of these Amazon eBay companies back then in 2009. It was like the Gold Rush. Like Gold Rush, everybody was running it. The whole Brooklyn was about Amazon and eBay.

Yaacov Bris: 13:17

And they have, like these three partners in Brooklyn and they're running a huge, huge Amazon business, three different accounts like something huge in like electronics, audio accessories and I'm there preparing orders, printing labels, cleaning up the warehouse, like doing summer job. And I'm telling them you know, like they figured that I speak French and he said to me what do you think about? I started, like you know, getting around, knowing orders, process websites, like different. You know, you start to get around. And they said to me what do you think about Amazon France? I said, yeah, okay, sounds great, okay, so what do you think about taking our catalog and introducing it to Europe? So I said, no problem, give me files, excels, and I'll sit down and I'll translate everything. I'll create a catalog. And that's how it started, from a summer job to running the company, actually, because then they parted ways like three partners and I stayed with one of them. We opened our own company and we basically developed our own brands and it became very big, to a point that we're selling product to 25 different countries, mostly Europe, asia, even the Far East, like Vietnam, thailand, new Zealand, australia. I even opened up an office in Singapore at one point with a guy there doing some antenna. I had a guy in Singapore developing the sales for me and, cutting the story short, then I moved to Israel. All this was through the shift.

Yaacov Bris: 15:06

I knew my wife in one of my French vacations and she lived in Israel. She was in France to study Jewish studies in a midrashah near Paris and she said to me well, if you want to marry, come to Israel, because I'm not planning to go anywhere else. Good girl. If you want to stay there, just find someone else. I'm good with it, but if you want to continue to develop the relationship, you should come. If not, it's not going to work. So I said, okay, I'm packing my bags, I'm coming to Israel knowing nothing. I had a job, that's all I had. I knew pretty much nobody. My parents lived in France.

Yaacov Bris: 15:47

On my brothers, everyone like, uh, I have grandparents and uncles, uh, uh, living in Brebrock and uh, you know so, uh, um, I mean, I was, uh, you know, in very good relationships, but it's not really um, you can't just land there and live there. So we got married and I said, okay, I'm going to get married and after a year I'll go back to the States, we're going to be married and everything's going to be fine. I'm going to have a job, I have my friends, I have everything. And then she said to me, after a year, you know, like, going back to the States, you know, marriage it's not just like being uh single, you know expenses, whatever. And I started to talk to friends. I said, yeah, she's right, like, be careful. And then we said, okay, uh, and then we discovered this, this area by you know, uh, she has an uncle, uh lives, uh, around here. So we went to him and I discovered this place.

Yaacov Bris: 16:44

You know, as a french grown standard jewish guy, in france we don't really know what the shtakhim are like. You know the ityashvut and the tzionut, like wasn't something very, very uh, of our first importance where I grew up, in the education that I received. So I thought it was people like you know, doing barefoot, like growing sheep and uh, you know, like uh, not very uh, you know, well developed. And I came here and I always say, oh, wow, these are nice people, they're happy, they're actually smiling. Can it be such a thing in israel, like people are happy to live and they're just it's smiling to you and nice to you, and they take, they walk slowly and they don't honk in like every Every two meters is like so quiet here, so peaceful. I said to my wife okay, if you want to stay in Israel, this is the place I'm staying here. The view reminded me of, you know, the Alps. Like the quietness, like quiet. I didn't worry too much about the insecurity because for me, whatever it doesn't, you know there's bombs here. There's bombs there whatever.

Yaacov Bris: 17:52

So if you have to die then you'll die anyway. You can't run away from it. So we moved to the Gush Etzion area I had, and then I moved my office to a frat like they had, like a technological hub. I had workers from Jerusalem coming in, whatever. So we had this office. At the same time my older brother wanted to make a liya and I introduced him to Bruno, which is a good friend of my wife's uncle, and I tasted his wines and I said, wow, these are beautiful wines. Like I couldn't drink wine when I came to Israel, like every wine that I was tasting was syrupy. I'm going to tell you the exact term, because my wine education I got it from my grandfather.

Yaacov Bris: 18:38

My grandfather is Rabbi Gardner, an American. He was born in Tampa, florida. He grew up in Boston, he studied in Boston, then he moved to France. He married a French girl from Alsace and he developed. He was the one to develop the cachereut of wine in France. I'm talking about 40 years ago. The eldest vintage that I found that my grandfather made was a 1980 Bordeaux, whatever. You know Pierre Miodovnik from Netofa. So my grandfather made Chidur to his second marriage and every time I meet Pierre he's telling me that he's making wine thanks to my grandfather. And then he has a whole story about the Guernic that he had to find back then and he couldn't make the. He had to get the grape the same day and my grandfather helped him with the Guernic to co-shorize the tank and that's the way he got his first harvest back then. We're very, very close. So he makes this wine and actually the Koenig winery, famous König winery he co-shorized it the first. He was the first one to make like co-shorized. He worked with Rabbi Zeckbach. He made the wines for Rabbi Doroth, what we call the Roof friends, rabbi Rottenberg, you know so. And then when the competition grew, they started making grape juice, like a very, very famous grape juice. They said this is the only grape juice that you can make. Actually, I go for it on it whatever. And then they sold the brand.

Yaacov Bris: 20:16

But as a kid, 10, 11 years old, he used to take a group of grandchildren, we used to be a whole group of cousins and we used to go to the winery south of France, in Pays d'Oc, near Perpignan and Montpellier. That's where Pierre was from. Yeah, exactly this is where he started. And we used to go to wineries, harvest and pressings and process barrels, bottling, like you know, every time. So we did the whole process and actually the most fascinating part was the tasting.

Yaacov Bris: 20:46

And my grandmother used to come and she's very, very good. She has like a very, very… Amazing palate, amazing. So she used to heart you with the winemakers and she has like this thing. She said a wine that I can't drink, it's a wine that I can't sell, that's the way. And then they used to argue to a point that this is what she said. And then they had to agree with her because they had nothing to say. And he said I can't drink it. So take the whole vat, like 50 hectoliters, and just dump it, because I can't drink that wine, whatever. That's the level. So we used drink that wine, whatever. That's the level. Wow. So like we used to drink wine.

Yaacov Bris: 21:26

Like you know, I'm 11 years old and drink wine on Shabbat and this is, you know, this is since where I remember myself drinking wines All kinds. Like you know, my favorite ones are like Côte du Rhone, because we're in the Rhone area, you know. So this is what I grew up on. Côote du Rhone, because we're in the Rhone area, you know. So this is what I grew up on Cote du Rhone GSM this is my favorite wines and I came to Israel and I couldn't drink anything. And then I said, like I used to find these bottles expensive bottles for me with like 80 shekels, even if I went out of my league 100 shekels for a bottle, like crazy, like a fortune for me to spend on a bottle.

Yaacov Bris: 22:14

And then I used to bring these bottles for Shabbat to my grandfather and say, oh, I found this great bottle, a hundred shekel bottle, and without I'm not going to say any brands or whatever, it's irrelevant. It tastes like my grandfather is like a Merlot guy, like a Bordeaux Right, bank Right. This is where he started before moving to Pays d'Oc. He opens up the bottle and says oh, jakob, your wine is burnt. I said what do you mean burnt? You can't burn a wine. He said no, do you mean burnt? You can't burn a wine. He said no, it's burnt. Taste it, it's burnt. I tasted it. And then the fact that I understood what he meant is like too much wood and it's almost like a saraf.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:00

Yeah, To say burnt, but it's actually thick. It's too much.

Yaacov Bris: 23:06

Yeah, it's too much, and so then I gave up. It's like I gave up. I gave up until, like, at one point that I heard, you know, greg Verchurch, like today's very, very famous. So he had a podcast with Daniel Rogoff. It was a very long time ago and it tasted like Israeli wines. And he's tasting this bottle of Pinamina Jogev Back then, like I think it was a Capitiver. The red label, yeah, yeah, I know which one you?

Yaacov Bris: 23:38

mean, and he said this is a great, great, great wine. So I went to the super sale it was like 30 shekels and I tasted the wine and it's amazing. So I'm going to every super sale and it's just emptying out shelves and drinking bottles at home. And this is what I was drinking, like how you'll get red, and then I think they had a change of varietals or blend and it's like I don't know. Then I discovered other wines, of course, and then I met Bruno the winemaker, in 2012, when discovering the area, 2012, when discovering the area, and there was like a bar mitzvah or some kind of event where my uncle was and he was invited also. So he brought bottles and I tasted this wine and I was like what this wine is? It's crazy, I never tasted something in Israel. And then he said, yeah, I have a winery. So then I came to the winery, driving from Gush Etzion to the winery you know, driving from Gouchet-Sillon to the winery and showing the winery I can pick up cases, whatever and then they were just bottling. So I came to pick up bottles but I ended up working like the whole day bottling.

Yaacov Bris: 24:44

I don't remember which vintage it was. I think it was 2011, vintage or something like that. They were bottling it was here. It like that. They were bottling it was here. It was here. It was in Carmel. Okay, it was in Carmel. In Carmel, right, it was like in a sort of a shed, like it wasn't even a shed, it was like a container, and then there was a shed next to it with a concrete plate.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:04

So what was it called? It was called Livni, it was. This was the Livni Original Bottles of.

Yaacov Bris: 25:10

Livni, I still have some bottles, I'll show you after that. And then I said okay, when you need me next time, just call me. He said yeah, no problem, we're making blends. Like two weeks from now we're tasting barrels, just come. And then I started to come very often at the winery and tell them from my own experience, after tasting a lot of wines and starting to know what the market wants, etc. I'm talking like over 10 years ago. The market has very, very much changed, but I knew wine. I knew like wine from a consuming perspective, you know yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:47

That's the most important perspective, yeah.

Yaacov Bris: 25:49

And then I tell them like, why don't you do this, why don't you do that and why don't you do this? But do it this way, not this way. And the label? And why don't you say this? But you can't write this on the label?

Yaacov Bris: 26:00

And I started driving them crazy for six years until Menachem Livni's wife passed away in 2015. And in 2016, he wanted to sell out the winery and he sold the whole production to one. He didn't, he didn't have patience. Uh, yeah, you know, it was very, very, uh, um, um busy, uh, you know, mentally uh, with, uh, with the loss of his wife. Uh, he was devastated, like you know, yeah, so he wanted to get rid of the winery. He said he lost purpose and at some point they told me okay, take the winery, do what you got to do, do it your way and wish you great success. Bruno's coming in as a partner. He said I'm only coming in as a partner if you're coming with me, because I don't know anything about selling the wine. I can make wine, but I can't sell it, and I need someone that can sell the wine to tell me what to do. So that's the way we got together and it was a point in my job.

Yaacov Bris: 27:06

To answer your question how did I did that whole switch? Did that whole switch? It was to a point that I had to decide, like, if I'm continuing in the company or if I'm stopping. We had some issues, like some running issues, and at some point I take up, I stand up and I take the decision just to leave that company. And I said I want to focus on something with a purpose, something in Israel, something that, something that's going to help others and some.

Yaacov Bris: 27:34

You know, wine was always a very big, passionate thing. You know, not just a drink. It's like when you see your grandfather, like at 50 years old or 60 years old, like running up and as a kid I had a hard time running after him like going up like the ladders of like a 50 or 60 hectoliters of vats, which is like huge silos, gigantic, and you just go around and then you have to go in and cauterize it and then you see your product at the end and you're so satisfied with it. This is what's so passionate about it and you learn about different tastes, whatever. So it's not just about the drink and the taste.

Yaacov Bris: 28:18

And this is how I decided just to switch completely and I said, okay, guys, I'm doing the business development projects. I didn't even charge anything, it was just to cover my expenses, like car. And I said, guys, I'm taking this project and let's do something with it. We're going to find investors, we're going to rebrand. My dream was to use all my marketing skills that I've learned over the years with selling stuff over the internet branding and I said, okay, wow, this is like the next level, because wine it's not about what you see you can't even describe it like. It's something you can't sell if you don't taste it. So this is like another challenge, like you have to create a great brand.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:03

You can't get a taste or smell over the internet, right?

Yaacov Bris: 29:06

so it would be nice if they could, but right not yet so so my conclusion was that you have to cause the consumer such emotions that he's going to say, okay, I must taste this thing. And it's without even talking about taste. Because taste it's like until you taste it you can tell any story you want, until you taste it, your taste is not my taste. So I could tell you raspberries and blackberries and anything, but you're, until you taste it, your taste is not my taste. So I could tell you raspberries and blackberries and and anything but you're going to taste it. You can say your wine is burnt, you know, or not burnt, or whatever, but it's your taste. I get my taste. So it's not the way you sell.

Yaacov Bris: 29:45

So I said, okay, this is a one heck of a challenge that I must uh, that I must uh have on my. I must experience this and I must succeed. And you know, I want to start from scratch and I want to be successful. And this is how I took this project on. My wife said like you're completely crazy, you're leaving a job and you're successful, and, and, and you have a partner. Like, what are you doing? It's like no, you don't. I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this and I'm going to be successful, and it's just for my passion. I need it for my Nishama. It's like this is my destiny.

S. Simon Jacob: 30:21

You had a vision when you came on board. How has the vision changed over the years since 2018, when you first became the CEO? Has it changed, or have you just been.

Yaacov Bris: 30:32

I have the same vision. It's just becoming a reality the way I envisioned it. Nobody believed in it. Everybody thought I was crazy, nobody believed that I would be successful, but I was so excited and so passionate about it that it actually convinced people and I said, okay, try it. And then we have this project that we're going to sell wine online. And I said, okay, I have to do something with the pricing. And I was doing these Kickstarter campaigns back then, selling watches and selling jewelry, like doing these Kickstarter campaigns. You know, like back then, you had this in 2014. Pebble, pebble. But before that, yeah, even before that, I was all over the Daniel Wellington project, you know. The watches, yes, so we made actually a different project that way. But, like in cutting the middle guy, whatever this whole concept, and I thought it was so great. And I said, like I've started to this whole concept and I thought it was so great. And I said I've started to learn this whole concept and the way. You know, it's not just the way it looks.

Yaacov Bris: 31:40

There's a lot of stuff going on behind these campaigns, you know it's not just the way it looks, and the guy sold like 2 million watches. It doesn't really work that way. But anyway, I started to learn the whole business and I said I have to do this with wine in Israel. Cut the prices. Everybody has a problem with the wine prices. And okay, if I'm going to sell it direct, why would I put the money the 30% of the store price, why would I put it in my pocket? So I started off this whole winery. I said, okay, guys, I don't need 30%, I'm going to sell a lot of wine, I don't have stores to pay, I don't have stores to pay, I don't have anybody to pay, and I'm going to sell the wine direct. So I could reduce 30% and still make a great profit. And so just grow the business and actually have a greater and faster penetration with my brand and be successful. And then we're going to see later, later, and be successful. And then we're going to see later, later, we're going to have to go into stores. Because that's the way it works Once you become a brand, people ask for it.

Yaacov Bris: 32:37

It actually happened a lot earlier than we anticipated. Stores started calling me Jakob, we need your wine, we need your wine, we need your wine, la Freya. Everybody's asking in my store. There are stores in Petr Ticva in Tel Aviv. Then, natalia, everybody's calling me and you know I can't even recall the amount of stores that called me.

Yaacov Bris: 32:56

Some stores insulted me. They're like you're crazy, you're going to need us and then when you're going to need us, we won't take you in, et cetera. And I said no, I'm not doing stores. And then distributors started contacting me One distributor, the other distributor, I could take you in this store, I could take you this, I could do that or whatever. And so I said no.

Yaacov Bris: 33:23

And then at some point one distributor really convinced me, was really excited about the brand and I was the only Israeli winery on his portfolio, so I'm not sharing his work with other Israeli wineries and he was very convinced about the way it would be and I said, okay, this is the way I want to work. And he looked for an Israeli kosher winery for all his customers that were asking him and he couldn't find a winery that would suit his vision of his business and the vision of the winery. So it's very it's a very, very difficult segment right to deal with distributors and to deal with stores. If you deal directly with stores. It's a different segment. If you deal with distributors, it's very difficult because everybody's trying to convince and everybody's like, uh, charging you and this and that promising you and then not successful, then it kills your brand and I said I'm not prepared to do this to kill my brand. So we went with him and just it's.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:26

The israeli wine business is incredibly highly, um, competitive. So like what strategies? I mean, you discussed some of the strategies just now as to how you focused on direct and then with one focus distributor, rather than trying to market it to everybody. But is there a specific strategy that you had to make yours kind of leap above? There's so many israeli brands now there's, there's literally hundreds of new wineries all the time, right? So so my strategy how did you differentiate yourself, right?

Yaacov Bris: 35:10

Right, right, right, right.

Yaacov Bris: 35:11

So that was my craziest question and I think it's everybody's question what's? I mean? It's one of the questions that we ask ourselves, like why are we so special and why are we so different? So we have a cab, they have a cab, he has a cab, and this one is good, this one is okay, but everybody's going to buy it and and everybody's going to taste it, whatever. So why our bottle over someone else? And the answer to that was the story Story of the area and authenticity.

Yaacov Bris: 35:48

That was my key word all along and I'm still believing it. Don't BS anyone. Don't BS anyone. Don't BS anyone. Be authentic, even if it's bad. Be authentic. Tell it the way it is, where you are. Don't try to hide and stick to it. A lot of people try to take me out Like it's not good, the brand, the French and the label is too white and this is too. No, I believe that this is authentic to the brand, stick to it and it worked. It worked Even in the States.

Yaacov Bris: 36:28

Okay, when we started working with Red Garden in 2020. They had a great relationship with Menachem because they were taking part of his wines and I contacted them and said, okay, hi, we have this new brand now. Menachem Livni is like this new brand, oh, it's never going to work. I said to him okay, you like, livni is like this new brand. Oh, it's never going to work. It's like I said to him okay, you like Livni's wines? These are the same wines with different label, so you can sell it as a continuation. You know, try it. You know it's never going to work. Like you know, you should have called it this. You should have go like that and make the shorter, make it this, make it that. Okay, this is the brand, try it. Okay, send me a pallet, put together a pallet, sent it to them Two months later. Yakov, can you send me everything you have at the winery? We're out of wine and everybody's getting crazy about these bottles and that's the way it works. And since then we're trying to catch the demand that we have in the US. I'm going every year to the States, I'm going on a road show, I'm talking to customers, I'm making these tastings and I'm doing it for three, four years COVID in the middle, whatever.

Yaacov Bris: 37:48

And our brand, I think, sits very, very well Because it's a little bit of everything. Our brand, I think, sits very, very well because it's a little bit of everything. You could catch any segment, any audience without kicking it. You're not kicking anybody. Some people are going to like the logo, some people are going to like the name, some people are going to like the little pasuk at the bottom. You know like it's going to say just to have this like twist of holiness. You know, and everybody's going to relate to something. You know and people, once they taste the wine, they're going to remember it.

Yaacov Bris: 38:30

That I was convinced since the beginning. That's what brought me in the winery in the first place. But I said how do I get people to taste the wine in the first place if I don't have a story? Because it's a bottle and this is a bottle Like what's gonna, why should I pick you?

Yaacov Bris: 38:43

Yeah, there was the strategy and I stick to it for three years selling the wine directly to consumers without making any differences.

Yaacov Bris: 38:57

Because once you go into the stores then your pricing has to be adapted and then you make mistakes and you can't fix it.

Yaacov Bris: 39:05

So I said like if I'm making that step, I have to be prepared and I have to do it right from the beginning, and that's what my distributor liked. And then I went on and did things slowly, no rush, went into stores one after the other, and if a store didn't want our product for one reason or another, we just didn't push, we went to the next store. We didn't need the stores. I wanted to be in a position where the stores would need us more than I would need them. You know they called us to bring the wine in because the customers are asking. So if a customer asks, I'm here to serve, you know what's your volume now, how many bottles do you make? So when I started in the winery in 2018, the first vintage of La Forêt Blanche winery, which was 2017, was 13,000 bottles, and last year's vintage, 2024, we produced 75,000 bottles. But it's still not enough. The demand if I have to answer the demand, the orders that I have, the contracts that I have, I have to be somewhere around 150.

S. Simon Jacob: 40:28

It's good, can you do that here? We could Okay.

Yaacov Bris: 40:34

But if we're going to do it too fast, we're going to lose something all the way Right. So what we're doing now, we're planting vineyards and we're growing and the demand is also growing. So by the time we're going to reach the 150, the demand is going to be beyond, but it's a good thing.

S. Simon Jacob: 40:50

It's a good thing to do. Where do you source your?

Yaacov Bris: 40:53

grapes from. So today we have Menachem Livni's vineyard. You know, obviously, which is a good chunk of it. You know it's like almost 40 dunams of grapes. The oldest vines there are 40 years old. You know which is the Cabernet that makes the Yar Lev Anon. He planted more Cabernet, whatever.

Yaacov Bris: 41:21

We have grapes in Mahon If you drive from Yerushalayim. We have these new vineyards in Mahon which the 2024 was first yield. We have in Soucia the whites are growing in Soucia Viognier, chenin Blanc. We have grapes in Assael, which is south of here, which is more reds. It's large, larger vineyards, like you know, 20, 30 dunams, and then another like another vineyard, of 50 dunams.

Yaacov Bris: 41:59

Then we have this project in the Naveh which is like right next to Karim Shalom. Yeah, it's something we started like eight years ago. They have their Merlot that grows in the sand right next to Karim Shalom. So it's like the sand really, like like four or five kilometers from the sea if you go over Rafiach, and then we make the rosé out of this Merlot and then we planted whites like a roussane to make the Talpiot white. We have vineyards in Arad Valley which is a Sauvignon Blanc that completes the Talpiot white, and then we also take there the Grenache to make the Rosé, because it's not enough to have a lot of vineyards. It's too small now to answer the demand, so we complete it with the Grenache from Arad Valley.

S. Simon Jacob: 42:53

These are vineyards that you source from. You have long-term contracts with.

Yaacov Bris: 42:57

Long-term contracts and we developed them. All these vineyards we developed, we went and analyzed the grounds and decided exactly how it's going to be planted, what style.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:09

So you're really involved with the whole thing from the beginning.

Yaacov Bris: 43:11

Yeah, so they had the land and they came to us and every week I have people coming to me. I have this land three dunam, twenty dunam. Who's the agronomist? You're using Moshe.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:22

Levi.

Yaacov Bris: 43:23

Moshe Levi is like the. He lives in Carmel, he's like one of my neighbors. He's now retired and he's like doing consulting for many different wineries and he really loves he's great at. I mean, his motto is it's great what they do in Europe, it's great what they do in South Africa or Australia, but we're not Australia or New Zealand, we're Israel. So you or New Zealand, we're Israel, so you have to adapt your growing to Israel. If in Europe they grow slow, they grow like low vines, it's for a purpose. If you're going to grow low vines here in Israel, it's going to have a very, very big effect. That's why we grow it high and the leaves and the irrigation and all these things. Like you have to know how to grow grapes in Israel so you can learn different things and different impacts. And we're trying always, like we have MOPSA, like, for example, now we planted this year, I mean last year already we planted Asortico.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:32

You know, I think Jaco, already we planted Assortico, I think Iacovoria also planted, and also, what do you call it? Drori, right?

Yaacov Bris: 44:39

So Bruno knows him very well. He's a doll.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:44

All of the winemakers you're discussing are all winemakers who are just stellar people. They're amazing people. We have very good relations. Iacovoria we have very good relations.

Yaacov Bris: 44:53

We all, yakovoria, we have great relations. Just now, here in Yerucham this year we had like a low yield in a certain vineyard, so we asked them like yeah, no problem, take two tons, like just to complete, and we gave in grapes, and when you need like equipment, emergency, different things, so we ask and we advise each other. And Eyal Dori also, like Bruno, speaks to him on a daily basis and it's great to have this. It's great. It's like a small family but nobody's doing a shed on any. There's enough. There's so much demand. Nobody's doing any harm.

Yaacov Bris: 45:34

There's no competition, really, because you can't meet the demand of Israeli wines right so I think that's why pretty much everyone is successful like and selling the wine at the end of the day, like you don't hear of wineries pouring wines in the sea because they can't sell it, you know just like they do in France, unless the wine is really bad or they have cash route issues. That's also a very, very big issue, but it's for a different discussion, I guess. So you have these wineries that made like a lot of wine, like Heter Mechira doing Shemitah, and now it's like they have a harder time selling it. But this is like a technical issue. It's not just that they're not a recognized brand. Do you find that your customer base.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:15

You have to be cashier, you have to be. You kept Shemitah.

Yaacov Bris: 46:20

Yeah, we kept Shemitah. We had to because Menachem Livni and it's part of our high-end wines. Most of our wines are relying on these grapes.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:32

I was going to ask you internationally Do you have a vision internationally as to where?

Yaacov Bris: 46:36

So, internationally, my prime focus is the States. You have a big part of the Jewish population that drinks wine. I'm not going to say 6 million Jews, because not all of them drink Israeli wines.

Yaacov Bris: 46:57

But it's a huge population, but it's a huge population and it's a population that has also, you know, meaning so not to neglect at all at all. And I try to go after you know the East or you know what about Europe? Europe were now in France also almost since the beginning, with a great distributor, maison Mercier, that does. He does Tsion, 1848, and he did Toura for a long time. I don't know, maybe he still does Netofa and you know many, many wineries moved to him and he's doing things the American way in Europe what others didn't do. And he has, like he's developing like private customers. He has a huge club in France. He's doing like a north, east and south of France, like he has a huge club in France. He's doing like north, east and south of France, like he has reps.

Yaacov Bris: 47:58

So at first also, he actually believed maybe more than the Americans in the brand, obviously because it's French. But the first order was very small and now it picked up to a way that, almost like the US market, I have to share stock with him. It's like very, very consistent. I shipped to him for Pesach almost what I shipped to the States. It's crazy. And he opened up the UK.

S. Simon Jacob: 48:33

The UK is a great market. There's some great people there.

Yaacov Bris: 48:37

So I let him open it. But Germany, he's doing sales in Germany. Austria, he's doing a little bit of Italy. Switzerland, he's doing great, he's doing there. So these are the main, main focuses.

Yaacov Bris: 48:52

You know, when I take, when I make productions, forecasts and different things, I take these two markets very seriously. It's like export is like US, france, then I have Israel B2B and I have Israel B2C and that's basically my forecast. And that's basically my forecast. And then I have spare wines that I try to open new markets such as China and Philippines and India. Someone contacted me from Thailand and different places that in case I'm going to need extra development, whatever. China is a great market, but it's difficult to penetrate, therefore, with israeli wines because they are mostly non-kosher. You know, in france, for example, talking about non-kosher uh market, uh, most of our consumers are jewish. But uh, now he successfully uh made it to the menu of the Club Med. You know Wow, club Med in the Alps, it's like 18 hotels just in the Alps, you know Wow. So they all have the De Vere Estate blend on their menu as the only kosher Israeli wine. So they have like Greek wine, Italian wine, like one wine, like the Spanish.

Bruno Darmon: 50:12

They have Israeli. They're not going to hold a whole portfolio of yours.

Yaacov Bris: 50:15

They're looking for wine, it's great, and they're not doing any noise. And we asked them to publish this. I said you're going to do so much damage by publishing this because then they're going to boycott us. So just don't say anything, just leave it alone and it's going to do the work. So just don't say anything, just leave it alone and it's going to do the work, you know.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:44

So this is an example of one of the non-kosher experiences.

Yaacov Bris: 50:47

What's your goal in the next five years, in the next ten years, for the winery? My goal for the next five years is to successfully make. To successfully make it to double it, as per our plan to answer the demand, but not just double the production. I'm not focused on growing production, because if you produce wine that you can't sell, it doesn't really help. So my focus is to meet the demand that I have now 150,000 bottles but keep the quality, have enough vineyards and to plan now already for vineyards that are going to take me up to 200,000.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:28

You said that the customers are changing, so my anima amine.

Yaacov Bris: 51:34

Know, yeah, my is the cab. Cabernet, sauvignon okay, it's the, it's the leader. No matter how hard everybody's going to try to dismantle it from the top, it's still going to be king. You know so we can. Once you, once we understand that, then we can build. You know. So Cabernet has to be our main focus.

Yaacov Bris: 51:57

Now we are developing more whites, because the demand for whites is going up exponentially. No matter how much bottles I produce, it's never enough. You know, this year Talpiot white reached 10,000 bottles. I never believed that I would make it above 5,000 bottles, you know. And it's already sold. It's like I have to fight for what I have left, like to stop sales. Like the States wanted another pallet, I told them no, france. Like whatever I have here, I hope it's going to last until Chavuot. You know this is how crazy it is for the whites. So we are developing more whites. We have the Ariel white, which is our high-end white, which we're going to taste later if you want, which is Vionier, and Chenin Blanc, because Bruno in the whites, he was not a white guy, but he told me, if we're going to make whites, then I'm going to do my whites what I believe in whites, not chard, and not Sauvignon Blanc, and not the regular stuff. I want to be more in the Rome, côte du Rhone, which is like a Viognier, jeannin Blanc, roussanne these are the grapes that we're working on. And then the Sauvignon Blanc that we use is not single, it's like adding up, like acidity. Like you know, it's very well balancing the Roussanne that we have, for example. So this is growing in the whites.

Yaacov Bris: 53:36

Obviously, the Rosé, we're switching it to a more. I'm not going to say Provence because we're not in Provence and we will never be Right. Okay, you can say that we're Mediterranean, but it's also a little bit we're Israeli. Okay, and I think a good grape to make our rosé is the grenache which we planted. It's delicious, many of it. But the Merlot that we have that grows in the sand is fantastic and that basically makes the rosé. We're going to taste it. But that makes the rosé not watery, acidic like the Provence type and not over fruity like most Israeli rosés. It's right in between rosé, it's like just fruity enough with a great acidity balance. That's right where it needs to be. I think this is the rosé, but we don't really believe so much in rosé and this is what I hear from the markets. Rosé is not the big thing. It's actually going down in sales. I think the whites are going to be.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:40

Whites is the big, big thing.

Yaacov Bris: 54:44

It's growing very, very fast and the market needs whites.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:51

I have a question, bruno. Bruno, you have a second Rakutakak. The question I have is is there a varietal or a blend?

Yaacov Bris: 55:03

Yesh, you're going to have to try you understand, is there a?

S. Simon Jacob: 55:07

varietal or a blend? He's not sure. Is there a varietal or a blend that you really want to work on in the future that you haven't had a chance?

Yaacov Bris: 55:16

to do. Yet this is the question. That's one what's your dream blend that you want to work on later, but we're already working on it.

Bruno Darmon: 55:24

We're already future blend gigant right right, this is what he's dreaming of to make. Yes, I still love France because I came and started my work in the Burgundy area Okay, even though we were a little more southern than that area. It's the Gigondas, okay.

S. Simon Jacob: 56:04

Gigondas, Gigondas. Okay, so there is a wine that he grew up with in France, that Bruno grew up with in France, with in France that Bruno grew up with in France, that you worked with initially there, that you have a desire to, that you would love to develop in the future, and it's what's the varietal Gigondas, gigondas, it's Grenache, syrah and Morvedre, okay, morvedre, or even some Carignan Okayian, okay that blend. Okay, so that's it. That's a rhone blend. Uh yeah, one of the ron blends one of the rome blends.

Yaacov Bris: 56:44

Okay, wow gigondas is like, would you say, uh, more pretty much like it's like it's a place gigondas, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like it's a place Gigondas, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, chateauneuf-du-pape, right, so that's what you're looking for in the future. So now we actually planted, we actually planted Grenache in a special valley. That would actually give us something close to that result, like not too high in altitude but not too low, like to get that humidity, but just to have the good level. We planted Syrah and Mourvedre. We have also Mourvedre here in Soussia and we have Carignan.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:23

What's the terroir? What's special about the terroir here in the Hebron Heights area? Is there something that makes it different than the rest of Israel? Wow, yeah, yes.

Bruno Darmon: 57:34

What. Yes, you can First of all, there is blessing here.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:40

It's important? First of all, it has blessing here. This is a special place.

Bruno Darmon: 57:45

because of it, judah received blessing from Jacob.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:48

Yes, we saw that in the Torah.

Bruno Darmon: 57:52

Jacob gave blessing to Judah and we are here in the land of Judah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

S. Simon Jacob: 58:11

Yaakov Avino there's a blessing here, because this is the land of Yehudah and Yaakov gave Yehudah a blessing specifically.

Yaacov Bris: 58:21

Yaakov made wine in that area. He poured wine to Yitzhak Avinu in the story with Esav, so he brought him wine, wine from here. They lived in Hebron area. This is where Yaakov Avinu lived and this is where he gave the blessing to Yehuda. It should be called Judean Heights, not Judean Hills. The hills is like lower Judean Heights. There aren't many wineries that grow grapes at that height. Like you know, hebron Heights, yeah, there aren't many wineries. I mean, in fact, I think Livni's Vineyard is the only commercial vineyard in that area. You know you have Kerem Halel. It's like a small private vineyard. Yes, you have other wineries in the area, but they source their grapes outside.

S. Simon Jacob: 59:15

I didn't even know Kerem Halal was there. That's interesting. Yeah, no, I know which one, kerem.

Yaacov Bris: 59:20

Halal, yeah, kerem Halal, but it's a small vineyard I don't know. He makes like 2,000, 3,000 bottles. It's not that commercial. I'm talking about commercial, commercial grapes. So it's very, very unique.

Yaacov Bris: 59:44

The altitude winds, cold winters, hot and dry summers. Proximity to the Judean desert creates a drop in the atmospheric pressure on the east. That drop in atmospheric pressure on the east, that drop in atmospheric pressure, prevents the clouds to go east. Like. You come here in the winter, you see clouds pouring rain. You look east, blue sky, and it doesn't rain in the Judean desert, which is like a few kilometers east, I live at the border of Carmel, it's like right at the edge. It's like, uh, you know, I live like at the border of carmel, is like right at the edge. It's called charlamy bar, the uh desert, uh gate, gate to the desert. I see judy, like from my house. It never rains there. It's extremely rare, you know. And uh, that whole area from, I would say from jerusalem, but not Jerusalem. It's already way. It's too east, too west, sorry, but if you draw the line from, let's say, tekoa, you know Tekoa, or maybe up to Mishor.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:44

Adumim. My house actually looks at the Chumot of Jerusalem Right and it looks south and you can see the clouds come and then they stop and into the desert there's nothing and it can be pouring with rain, but into the desert and this is unique to that place.

Yaacov Bris: 1:01:05

you don't have that in the Michaux, in Haré Yehuda different altitude, wind, dryness. How high is it here? Here we're about 875, the winery and the vineyard is like 980.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:24

And it faces what direction South, north east.

Yaacov Bris: 1:01:29

The grapes are planted west to east, west to east, west to east in a sort of wadi. So it's like deep, deep, deep dirt. Terra rossa Right terra rossa, and the Pinot Noir in that vineyard is planted on the hill in the vineyard, so it's like a more rocky vineyard and that's why that's what makes the Pinot Noir that we have like so so it irrigates it.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:59

Not only irrigates, it drains itself. So it's not sitting in water yeah, very cool.

Yaacov Bris: 1:02:03

So that's the, that's pretty much the vineyard, the terroir thank you, todah todah Bruno, really amazing.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:02:09

Ta-da ta-da Bruno Al-ud-da-ba, really amazing. Okay, baruch Hashem.

Yaacov Bris: 1:02:15

You want to make a pause and eat something, drink something?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:02:18

Let's taste some. You got me thirsty. Please check out our next week's episode for part two of this delightful conversation and tasting with Jacob Briss at his La Forêt Blanche winery. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request. Thank you are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.