S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome back to another episode of The Kosher Terroir, where we uncork the stories behind the wines, the winemakers and the magic of kosher winemaking from around the globe. Today, we're thrilled to bring you an exclusive conversation with Or Nidbach Bach, the head winemaker of renowned Tabor Winery, crafting wines from across Israel's varied terroir to launching the premium artisanal wine brand.

S. Simon Jacob: 0:58

Orr's vision is reshaping the landscape of Israeli wine. One vintage at a time of Israeli wine, one vintage at a time. We'll dive into his journey from vineyard to barrel and get an inside scoop on new, yet-to-be-revealed wines that promise to push the boundaries of winemaking excellence. But that's not all. If you're a loyal listener, now is the perfect time to revisit our treasure trove of episodes where we've been telling the stories that shape the world of kosher wine, and there's so much more to explore. So if you're driving in your car, please focus on the road ahead. If you're at home relaxing, please pour yourself a wonderful glass of kosher wine, settle back and get ready to savor this rich, flavorful episode with Or Nidbach, right here on The Kosher Terroir. Let's raise a glass to discovering what's next in the world of wine Cheers. So welcome to The Kosher Terroir. First of all, I have a few questions. Can you share your journey into winemaking and what led you here to Tabor?

Or Nidbach: 2:09

All right, my journey in wines started maybe something like 20, 21 years ago. I was finishing after the army. I went traveling all over the world not concerned about wine. Yet when I got back to Israel I started to think about my future, what I'm going to do, and I started walking as a bartender. And in this specific restaurant the owner was a wine lover and he brought a lot of winemakers from all over Israel to explain about the wines for the waiters and bartenders.

Or Nidbach: 2:49

And when I started hearing about what's going on about wine, the vineyards, the passion, I got into it. I got the bug and then I started to find out what I need to do in order to do wine professionally or to be in this kind of business, the business of wine. And most people told me the winemakers that I met. They told me you should go to UC Davis and learn about wine. And then I started my journey about wine. And then I started my journey. I did my bachelor degree in israel, in uh, in the hebrew university, in agriculture, um, and then my uh. And then, when I graduated from my bachelor I I asked myself um, maybe I need to walk a little bit with wine, because I never walk with wine to understand if this is what I want to do practically. So I started looking for wine jobs and I found one here.

Or Nidbach: 3:58

Apparently, the assistant winemaker was walking here. He went to study abroad and they looked for someone to take care of the of the lad and stuff like that so I can came along. Um, it was 2010 and I started walking here. I did it for two years, two vintages and um, and I found out that I like it. You caught the bug. Yeah, I caught the bug Bing time and then I started. I applied to UC Davis and I went there for doing my master to use and I took my wife I was married at the time already and I actually was planning to stay in Napa. I mean, I wanted to work for a while at least in Napa, but then they called me from here. They told me there's a winemaker job for you if you want it, and it's not easy to find a job in Israel a winemaker job because there's not so many large wineries that are looking for professional winemakers. So I did it. I came back and since 2014, I'm a winemaker here and last year I got the job to be the head winemaker in Intable.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:25

Who was the one who was here before? Who be the head winemaker in Intable? Who was the one who was here before? Who was the head winemaker?

Or Nidbach: 5:28

Aryan Escher was the head winemaker and he's still here he's advising. He actually established the winery along with the Sela family 25 years ago, 26 years ago, so he's got a lot of I mean, he did everything here.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:51

That's awesome. The winery just recently launched this artisanal premium wines brand. What inspired this and what can consumers expect of these wines in the future?

Or Nidbach: 6:08

So, along with me getting the Edwine hijab, we wanted to change some of the wines. Give me to put my philosophy into the new wines. So your fingerprint.

S. Simon Jacob: 6:28

My fingerprint, which is actually on the logo, which is amazing.

Or Nidbach: 6:30

It's very cool, it is. So we did the new artisanal series. That's my wines. So I didn't change all the wines or at least didn't break it and rebuild it, I just looked for, you know, some places I need only a little touch and some wines are new completely and some wine we change, I think, drastically in order to to me believing completely, and some wine we change, I think, drastically in order to to me believing in the wines, in the new wines, and I encourage people to taste because I think we did a lot of nice things, different things. It also it's a change, but it will take a few years. I mean it's wine, the change in the vineyards and new plantings and everything. It will take at least five years to completely be my philosophy and change.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:37

What are some of the things about the changes in your philosophy, specifically your philosophy?

Or Nidbach: 7:44

I believe in very drinkable wines, very elegant, you know, not so powerful like you will get usually in the Israeli market. Very powerful wines because we are a warm climate region and people tend to take the ripening to very high degrees of sugar. And it's not easy not to do it because you want the specific ripening and it's hard because it's so warm. You get sugar very high, acid very low and the phenolic, the taste, the flavors, is going slowly, slowly. So sometimes you'll get it uh, not uh, together, not parallel, as as you wish. Um, so we need to change sometimes the, the varieties. Um, I prefer not to do everything. Uh, with cabernet sauvignon, I prefer going into, I I think, more Mediterranean varieties like Syrah or Durif, or even a Grenache that we don't have yet, or Marcellin, which is beautiful Mediterranean variety that you can bring your wines to be more soft and elegant and more easy to drink. Not all wines should be. You should wait 10 years in order to drink them. So that's in a nutshell, my philosophy.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:12

Cool, you have these categories element creation, desire series, the different series Is there? What's different in terms of each of those styles and what's the target audience for each one?

Or Nidbach: 9:27

So Elements is the enterer series to the premium. That's how I see it. So all the wines are varietals. We want people to understand the different varietals, give them the specific characters for each variety. So in the whites, for example, we have the Sauvignon Blanc and we have Chardonnay and Gewurztraminer and Chenin Blanc and Roussan and also our Rosé, and the wines are very, very accessible. All the whites accept from very, very small amounts of oak chardonnay in the chardonnay, but it's small percentage. All the whites are un-oaked completely. So you should get the message of the character of the of the varietal.

Or Nidbach: 10:20

Yes, and the reds are oaked for 12 months and they are what we call the mid-premium. So you know the people when they're getting into wines usually they're starting with the un-oaked wine reds maybe for I don't know 30 shekels on the shelf. So this is a step up. Here you get some more complexity. Still, the wines shouldn't be so aggressive and powerful, but more complexity, a little bit of oak spice, but still varietals. That's the element. Creation is a step up. The wines also, most of them varietals, but we also have two blends. Most of the wine here are single vineyards, so this is our best vineyards all over Israel. So we have the Chardonnay from the Golan Heights and the Atanat from the Golan Heights and Avionier. That's interesting.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:27

How is that doing?

Or Nidbach: 11:31

Tannanat is very interesting. Yeah, because it's a very unique variety. You guys are the only ones, or one of the only ones, who are making a Tannanat at the moment, so we were the first. And still I agree. I agree, I know some people do; they deployed and do have it. don't know of so many that did a varietal Tannant.

Or Nidbach: 12:00

It's a very unique variety because it's very strong, it can grow like a beast, grow everywhere, give you high yields and also, because of the very thick skin of the berries, it doesn't get any diseases or sunburn and stuff like that. On the other hand, if you want to take it to premium, you need to do a lot of thinning throughout the year because it can give you high yields, like 3-tons per dunam and something like that. So we do a lot of thinning. And also in the winery, because of the thick skin, you get a lot of thinning. Um, and also in the in the in the winery, um, because of the thick skin, you get a lot of extraction, a lot of phenolics, a lot of tannins.

Or Nidbach: 12:52

Uh, sometimes too much. So in order to control it, we taste it throughout the fermentation, the alcoholic fermentation, uh, very often I mean sometimes three times a day in order to get a specific points, that it's not too much extraction, and if it is, we separate the skins right away in order to get the tannate character. But drinkable, yeah, which is not easy, because if you taste the Mad maduran, the french thanat, sometimes it's it's in ebos 10 to 20 years in order to, uh, you know, be drinkable, uh. So, yeah, it's a very interesting, uh, variety.

S. Simon Jacob: 13:34

it's not easy, but it's, it's that, that's the fun of it, especially when you're making it as a single varietal rather than as a blend, because it really doesn't leave you much room to play it's a single varietal and it's a single vineyard also.

Or Nidbach: 13:50

So, yeah, it doesn't let you a lot of room to play. That's us need to be very, very hands-on in the vineyards, and we have a very good viticulturist, Barak, and we have a very good viticulturist Barak which is every week in every vineyard all over Israel, and we have a lot of vineyards all over the country and he gives specific instructions to the growers what to do, how to irrigate, when to thin, when to like. Now we are doing all the pruning and it's very important if you want it to be, you know, high-end single vineyard. So, yeah, thanat is very, very interesting and we are still learning.

S. Simon Jacob: 14:39

We're tasting some more as well this morning. So thank you, Sure Amazing. So yeah, Tell me a little bit about this.

Or Nidbach: 14:46

So this is our Sauvignon Blanc. On the elements level, it's one of our best known wines. It's actually a blend of Sauvignon Blanc from the Golan Heights and from Searing and Kvartavo here, so also Vion Blanc. What I'm aiming here is to give you a very aromatic wine, as it should, on the other hand, but not too much. I don't like the New Zealand style when it's on steroids. It's too much, it's too juicy for it. Yes, so I like to be on mute it a little bit, but it's still aromatic, very crispy and mineral, like Sauvignon Blanc should be. And this is the 24 vintage and I think it is a very good year, one of the best Spada.

S. Simon Jacob: 15:50

It's got beautiful citrus aromas, it's got great citrus flavors and it's got acid.

Or Nidbach: 16:01

It's just nicely balanced, yeah. So, like I said, even though it's on the elements level, I think of it as one of our flagship wines, because we are very known for Sauvignon Blanc and I feel that I need to deliver every year one of the best in the country. So this is what we're trying to do. Very interesting.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:23

Very good, thank you. Continue on the scale. What's after creation?

Or Nidbach: 16:29

So yeah, creation is single vineyards all over the country and the whites over there. Most of them no, all of them are oaked, fermented in oak. We do a lot of souli and betonage oak, fermented in oak we do a lot of souli and betonage. We have a specific barrel room only for whites in the winery Because of temperature.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:51

Yes.

Or Nidbach: 16:52

Because, unlike the reds, most of the whites are fermented alcoholic fermentation in the barrels. When you get a lot of heat generated inside, you need to control it, so we have specific rooms only for whites in order to control the temperature of fermentation. Are those the huge barrels? At the moment we're using 225, like the regular, the break, 300 and 500 liters for the whites, not more than that, even though I would like to try uh, higher, bigger formats of barrels for whites. We believe a lot in whites in the winery we invest a lot in technology and in the vineyards we actually produce more whites and red. At moment we are 55% white in the winery, so we are very we believe in whites. I think the people in Israel should drink more whites.

S. Simon Jacob: 17:52

It's a warm climate, yeah, it's. Drinking something like this Sauvignon Blanc is just perfect.

Or Nidbach: 18:00

I agree, I agree. So creation, so after creation, we have the desire series. At the moment we have only one wine, but a few will come in the future. It's a single vineyard, a single variety of wines. At the moment, the only one we have is Cabernet Sauvignon, a single vineyard from the Melchior mountain, which is just amazing.

Or Nidbach: 18:33

So the wines in desire should be very high-end wines, all of them, and in order to get there, you need them to. I mean, you don't, you don't just select your best vineyard, you need to be, you know, spot on, because, uh, the competition is is very good. Other other wineries does very, very good job and we need to be on the same level at least. So, uh, in desire, we should, we should have more varieties, probably in the next two or three years. What type of varieties are you looking for?

Or Nidbach: 19:09

So I believe in Syrah. Syrah should be there, cabernet Franc should be there. Those varieties, I think, can give you complexity but also are better for this climate, because Cabernet Franc you can get to the right ripening pretty early, not like Cabernet Sauvignon, that usually you need to take it to ripening in high bricks. In Cabernet Franc, you can do it probably a bit earlier and that's very good, I think, for my philosophy in wine. So yeah, syrah, petit Syrah. Maybe in the future flagship wine will be a blend, but in desire at the moment those are the varieties that I'm aiming for.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:04

Sustainability is a key focus in many wineries being ecological and sustainable. What's the commitment here? Uh, I'm gonna say it to boar winery. I know you branded this artisanal, but you're changing the name of the winery. No, okay, so it's just. It's the Okay, so it's just a brand.

Or Nidbach: 20:26

It's just a brand.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:26

Yes.

Or Nidbach: 20:27

What we did actually in the rebranding is separating the premium wines from the regular wines. So the regular wines are called Tavor, yeah, and the premium are called Artisana. So it's a house of two brands, but the the winery is tabor. Okay, this doesn't change. We are very proud. You know, winery there. Um, we are not changing the name. Um, so sustainability.

Or Nidbach: 21:00

So, uh, as you know, or maybe not, the former brand was actually everything about sustainability. It was the howl, the barn owl, which is one of the best ecological predators, and we did a revolution. It was almost 15 years ago that we changed all of vineyards into sustainable, ecological vineyards, all our vineyards into sustainable, ecological vineyards. Not spraying, removing fences, let animals go and go out to the vineyards, growing cover crops all over, and everything was aiming to do less spraying, less tractors goes in and out, because we believe this is the way to give our vineyards longer years, because in Israel usually we are replacing vineyards after 20 years, which is very young vineyards, young vineyards. So if you wanted to go to older vineyards that can give you more complexity, we thought the way is to do to go to sustainable, let the vineyards, let nature help the vineyards protect itself and you don't need to spray all the time and stuff like that. So, yeah, we invest a lot in sustainability still.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:30

You talked a little bit about it, but the artisanal brand emphasizes the winemaker's fingerprint. How do you balance the traditional winemaking techniques with modern innovations and still leave your mark on the wine?

Or Nidbach: 22:48

Well, I think it's easy. I mean I have my philosophy, which I'm still learning. I hope to learn, I mean all the kind and not stop. And every year I'm going at least to one different region in the world wine region and every winery I get to I learn something, even if it's the smallest winery or the biggest, you learn something and change your uh, it's not changing your philosophy or what you believe, but it changed the way you get to the specific wine that you are aiming for. And wine, the wine industry, is not a high tech. So, yeah, there are some modern technologies, we'll call it, but basically they're doing the same things that people done like 100 years ago, but automatically and not by hand. So, um, I I don't change. I still believe in the in the traditional style, but where it's helping us to extract more or to get better wines from the specific vineyards with technology, yeah, we'll go for it for sure. I mean, I believe in that and I have an open mind for technology in wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:16

You brought up that you look around at the different wineries all over the world, but even within Israel. Your vineyards span from the Golan Heights down to Mitzpah Ramon. All of these are different terroirs within Israel. How did the diverse terroirs across Israel influence the characteristics of your vines?

Or Nidbach: 24:38

That's a very good question. So, first of all, we planted all over Israel because we wanted to be at the best regions. Because it's a warm climate, you need to go high to the mountains and we wanted to go to the best regions. So we have the Galil and the Golan and we have the Gush Etzion area and the Shomron and it's Peramon, which is also it's a desert, but it's 800 meters above sea level. And when we got there, we checked for the soil, we did a soil test in order to put the right variety, the right clone and the right rootstock on the specific soil and climate and varieties.

Or Nidbach: 25:26

We thought a lot about it and we did some mistakes, but this is how we learned and we changed on the way and we learned, let's say, for Ritz-Paramon, which not every variety will go because of the high radiation, it's not easy to grow all the varieties. So at the moment we have Chenin Blanc and Malbec that we think are very suitable for the specific terroir. But we are still learning and tasting and I'm going to different wineries in Israel in order to taste the specific vineyards all over the country. Yeah, we get different terroir and it's amazing. It's amazing to taste after the harvest to taste all, let's say, cabernet, sauvignon from the Galil, golan and we have in Gush Etzion and the Chomron, to taste the different styles and terroir that you get from each region.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:28

There's definitely a distinction between each of them.

Or Nidbach: 26:30

Yes, definitely, and it depends on the variety also, because some varieties are very influential by clone different clones, let's say Syrah Syrah can be very different. Terroir will impact, but the clone is very impactful also. So, cabernet Sauvignon usually it's less on the clone and more on the terroir. So it depends on the variety and this is how we learned what we think is the best location for specific vineyards or specific varieties, because we have a beautiful single vineyard, cabernet Sauvignon from Gouchetion, and we have a specific and beautiful Cabernet Sauvignon from Malchia, very different style, but both of them are.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:17

That's from the vineyard or it's from the winemaking.

Or Nidbach: 27:20

It's from the vineyard because the winemakers stay the same. Pretty much it's from the vineyard. Or it's from the winemaking. It's from the vineyard because the winemakers stay the same pretty much. It's from the vineyard because it's amazing to taste it. You'll get different styles of Cabernet Sauvignon and this is something that every year you know. It's to understand how much is in the soil and how much is in the vineyard, and this is something we are still learning and it's not easy to understand. Sometimes you get problems in the vineyard that you don't understand why, and we're doing a lot of tests for the soil. But this is what's interesting and wine, I think, the diversity.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:07

Talk to me about what, in the terroir, distinctly shapes the profile of the wine. You talked about the two Cabernets. What's different about them? In the taste and the approach?

Or Nidbach: 28:26

For a specific Cabernet, let's say the Malchia or the Galil, will give you usually very lush and very powerful wines foot forward, usually very powerful, and from the Gouchetion usually we get thinner, more elegant wines, richer with pyrazines, which is a character of Cabernet Sauvignon, but you feel it very distinct in Gouchet Zion and you actually get it also from Merlot in Gouchet Zion, which is amazing, and so it's thinner, more elegant, with more pyrazines, but still has very nice complexity. So for my style of wine I usually prefer the Cabernet Sauvignon coming from that region, from Lusitania, yes, what about the?

S. Simon Jacob: 29:15

I know Shirazes can be so different. Yeah, can be so different. Yeah, they can be very spicy and very heavy and I've even seen almost like um, very light.

Or Nidbach: 29:29

Uh, shiraz's that are not like rosé light but close yes, sirah is uh, like I said before, it's it's very um depends the clones. You have different clones that some of them will give you the take it to more earthy, more animalistic, like leather and meat and stuff like that, and others will give you more floral style and foot forward wines, and it's amazing. But that's not enough. What you do in the vineyards will change it drastically. I mean the way you treat it on the vineyards. When you prune, how you prune, what's the yield? What's the yield?

Or Nidbach: 30:20

Usually Syrah is very, very spoiled, with water also, which is a problem in Israel. You need to irrigate, so you need our viticulturist. This is what he does. Syrah will look very happy, but if you don't give enough water in one day it can fall apart and and fall down. So, um, to be hands-on, the vineyards in syriza, very important cabinet, so we only go anywhere. It doesn't matter. Syriza is a spoiled uh writer um, and the style is very different with clone and terror. So, let's say, our sy in the Galil usually will be very, very fruitful, but the Syrah we'll get from Gush Etzion, let's say, are like more the style of leather and animal and earthy, which is very nice.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:18

The Desired series features a Cabernet Sauvignon produced only in exceptional years. What are the criteria to determine such a release and how do you ensure its distinctiveness?

Or Nidbach: 31:29

So, like I said, we have a lot of, let's say, cabernet Sauvignon. Every varietal usually got a lot of different vineyards of the specific varietal. So what we do usually during harvest, in the tasting, we are giving grades to the specific vineyards and after monolactic fermentation, when we're done with the first stage of the wines, the fermentation, we taste all the wines and also we give them scores and we'll see the best of the wines. The fermentation we taste all the wines and also we are giving them scores and we'll see the best Cabernet Sauvignon and then we treat it as we should in premium, we give it the specific barrels and how long and the rotations, and after giving scores and we'll see which one is the best, we'll put it in barrels and usually it will be 24 months, and after that we'll taste it and then we'll decide if we think it's good enough to be in desire. Sometimes and we do it a lot we do also blind tasting with the competition in the market. So we'll bring the high-end wines and do a blind tasting and we'll see where we are. And if I'm not in the first three, usually I'll not put it in the market. So it's a hard decision. Usually the tasting will give to professionals. So it's a hard decision. Usually the tasting will give to professionals, so it's not just me In the black tasting. We'll bring people from the outside, sometimes winemakers. I don't tell them even what it is, just taste and give scores, like in competitions. So this is the way we challenge the desire.

Or Nidbach: 33:18

We need it to be the high-end wine 2024, how's it looking? Looking very good. The whites are very, very good. It was a warm winter year so we thought we were going to have some problems and we had some problems with the yield, but quality-wise it looks very, very good. The whites some of them we already released so we can taste and see. This is, I think, one of the best here in the last decade of our Sauvignon Blanc. And the reds are in bells. I tasted them a month ago. It looks very good. But again, in Israel you don't have a lot of changes through the vintages because usually the weather is very stable. It's not like in Europe, in France, that you'll get storms and rain during the harvest and very, very diverse weather. Here it's pretty stable.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:19

So usually the differences between vintages are not there as a head winemaker, how do you envision the future of Israeli wines on the global stage, and what role does the boar play?

Or Nidbach: 34:33

I think Israeli wines should be more recognized in the global wine market and I think we should do like what Greece did like 10 years ago, when they all got together, the wine industry of Greece, and they labeled them as the wine of Greece and you saw all kind of tasting all over the world. I saw in New York City, greece wine for tasting and it labeled them very high in the wine market. And I think we should do the same, because at the moment each winery is for itself pretty much, so it will give us more power and the wines are very good. Everyone who tasted Israeli wines will tell you that. You see the evolution of the wines. They are getting better and better and there is no reason why we shouldn't be on the you know the big the stage with the big ones, the big wines of Europe and the new world.

Or Nidbach: 35:48

And so first we need to come together. All the wineries should come together and build, probably with the help of the government, to build a label Israeli wines and not kosher wines that now you see on the shelf kosher wines and people think non-Jewish, people think kosher wines ah, it's cheap, sweet wines. No, it's very high-end wines from Israel and should respect the history of Israel, which produced wine 3,000 years ago, and that we are like a mix maybe Greece as well like a mix between the old world and the new world, because we had a lot of transition in the wine industry in Israel from 3,000 years ago to Rothschild and now the new age of wines in the last 40 years. It's blossomed.

S. Simon Jacob: 36:49

It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing yeah.

Or Nidbach: 36:52

So, and what's Tabor should? I mean? I would like, of course, our wines to be. I always like to lead the trends and be in the front, so of course I'll do my best to do the best wines. You know, they're not only Tabor, also the wine. The Israeli wine should get recognized on the global stage. But Israeli wines are amazing. I think we have very, very good winemakers here and we have the. I mean this is what you should do right now Take the wines and, you know, take them out to the world, because we are good enough, that's for sure.

S. Simon Jacob: 37:39

It's amazing. I was really impressed when I saw the artisanal brand come out. Um, the whole branding of it is beautiful and it really is appropriate because the wines are special not only internally within israel, but externally. I think they can stand up to any other ones that are there, so so I think it's amazing. I really look forward to it. Can you discuss any upcoming projects or wines in development with Tabor that enthusiasts should look?

Or Nidbach: 38:12

forward to. I don't want to put names, but we have very new varietals that are not existent in Israel still. Really Well, we'll come, probably in the next two to three years because we just planted them a year ago. So some new varietals, new to the country, not only for Tabo. Also, we are going to plant some new varietals for Tabo that we don't have at the moment, like Grenache, grenache Noir and Grenache Blanc. Both of them we also will put, I hope so they should get the right quality. But again, I believe a lot in Syrah in Israel, so I would like to put a Syrah in the, you know, ian portfolio, so in the creation, at least serious, and a lot of new plantings that should be in there. But you know it's wine, so you plant a vineyard. If it's a premium wine, it will be on the market in seven years. So it will be on the market in seven years. So it will take a while.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:25

It takes a while. How did the new ventures align with Tabor's philosophy and commitment to quality?

Or Nidbach: 39:31

So again, I believe in very drinkable wines. Usually the plantings, the new plantings I do is for varietals that fit my philosophy and together with terroir and the climate here in Israel, because I love Pinot Noir, I love it.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:47

This is maybe the most amazing, most winemakers love Pinot Noir and the trouble is they're just trying to get it here and it's very, very difficult.

Or Nidbach: 39:57

So yeah, I'm not even tried.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:59

I would ask you whether or not you were going to look for a Pinot Noir varietal.

Or Nidbach: 40:04

I've tasted a lot of Israeli Pinot Noir. I mean I think most of them it's not good enough. They don't make it to Pinot Noir, right, it's not good enough. And I know Pinot Noir, I used to. When I walked in Napa I walked with Pinot Noir of the highest ranking in California and it was beautiful Pinot Noir and you can't get it here. I mean, this is so different climate and Pinot Noir is very spoiled. You need cool weather and I will be very surprised to taste Pinot Noir with a very distinctive style and quality in Israel. But so at the moment it's not on my, I'm not planning to. So I will plant varieties like Grenache Blanc and Grenache Noir that I think are very suitable to the weather, that I think very suitable to the weather, um, and also syrah and the reef and uh and and maybe more sauvignon blanc, which also does very, very good in israel. Um, I don't know if you know, but to.

Or Nidbach: 41:14

At this moment we are planting, uh, the, the. The plantings we'll get is from south africa. It's not long, it's not longer from from europe. So it's also different clones and different the variety. The same varieties, but different clones coming from south africa, which is something we need to attest and see if it's uh. At the moment it looks pretty good. Uh, the last two years that people getting getting fruit and wines from that I spoke to Noa Maoz.

S. Simon Jacob: 41:45

She's amazing. So, yeah, I know about it and it's. Yeah, that is a big change.

Or Nidbach: 41:54

It's a big change and so far it looks very good the quality but it's something we should taste for many years, because I'm pretty sure we'll not get the same style of wine for for all wines. Some of them may be better, some of them probably less, but um but we don't have a choice. We need to take care of our vineyards in order to leave something for the next generation and not diseases.

S. Simon Jacob: 42:24

For listeners who are new to the boar. Which wines would you recommend? They start with the best understanding of your portfolio and winemaking style. Where should they start? How should they proceed through?

Or Nidbach: 42:37

I think, on the elements level, you should try our Chenin Blanc and Sauvignon Blanc and Syrah the Syrah, it's called Syrah On the creation. The Malbec and the Viognier, I think pretty much stand for my style in wines which are elegant and easy and nice to drink and complex but easy to drink at the same time. Yeah, pretty much this is it. This is the wine I usually recommend.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:10

Very cool. Can we try some more Wines? Sure, I'd love to try it. You brought up the comparison between the terroirs.

Or Nidbach: 43:20

In wines I can can. If you want to compare, let me see. But and now we'll do a comparison of the cabernet sauvignon from the galil and from the gushet. So this is from the galil, but this is just opened so usually it takes a while to open. The Galil is the desire. It's from the Malkia vineyard and usually very fruit-forward. Again, it's my style specifically. I prefer it fruit-forward still, but elegant, not fruit bomb, and a lot of oak. But it's black fruit, very complex. So in the Gush Etzion you get more pyrazines.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:10

Yeah.

Or Nidbach: 44:11

It's very notable, which I like because this is the character of the variety. So it's notable. But with age also, I mean, at the beginning you'll get it very green style of Pyrazine. Some people doesn't like it, but when it ages in the bottle it softens and it's getting more complexity in the wine and I think it's giving it some coolness. You know, like mint style and uh, and which I like because cabernet it's, it's a cool variety. See, why is a warm variety? No, it's slush, it's uh, spicy, and cabernet it's cool, it's the spirosines and it's it even though this was just so, it's still really approachable.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:00

It's still real level yeah, thank you.

Or Nidbach: 45:03

It will open up in the next two hours and get more complexity, but again, this is the, the, the malchia, the, the galil cabinet from, uh, it's the desire level and this and the reason why it's in desire because it's it's it's complex, it's very complex on the mouth and it's in desire because it's complex, it's very complex on the mouth and it's got a very long finish which, at the end, I mean I think those wines may be pretty much on the same level, with a bit of a few points more for the Galip. This is why it's in desire. But specifically, I think it's one of the best Cabernet, the Gouche Etion. It's called the Judaica Vineyard, it's a single vineyard. It's also won last year in a gold medal in the Schkola Zahaber In the Cabernet, over 100 shekels, which is it stands up. It's a very, very good Cabernet Sauvignon. Yeah, but I love comparisons. I can all day do comparisons.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:13

You know, some people have exceptional memories, like Gabe Geller had a memory for years of different tastes. They don't have that. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

Or Nidbach: 46:27

I need to compare it. It's very hard to do, also to remember yeah remember smells. You know our nose can, can detect differences uh, in 10,000 different smells. But to remember them and say this smell is like pure seeds, like green, this one is like chocolate, this one is like caramel, this is very hard for people to do and it's a lot of experience, it's a lot of practice, practice yeah, I like both of them very much. They're very good ones.

S. Simon Jacob: 47:04

I can see drinking the Gush Etzion one more regularly, and I can see drinking it with more food actually, because it's a little lighter, and this is like I can see drinking it with, you know, heavy steak yeah, it's more heavy, it's got more body into it.

Or Nidbach: 47:28

The Gush Etzion is a bit thinner, yeah, but it's still complex, it is.

S. Simon Jacob: 47:34

Love it. The Melchia is like almost it's the same vintage. It's actually the same vintage. Yes, 20th of May, so it's actually deeper in color.

Or Nidbach: 47:48

Yeah, the Malchia vineyard is a very unique vineyard. You come to the vineyard, you look at it. You see, yeah, it's a Terra Rosa. This is what you get usually in the Galil. But if you dig under you get maybe 20 centimeters of soil and underneath no soil, it's only rock.

Or Nidbach: 48:14

It's limestone rock up here yeah, it's in the, it's right on the border with Lebanon You'll get a lot of rock, only rock. So the roots of the vines need to dig very, very hard into the rock to get into water and they struggle. They struggle a lot and when they struggle we get good wines because, you see it on the vines, very small berries, very dense and very concentrated berries and you get very. You look at the cluster, it looks different than regular Cabernet Sauvignon because it's a bit smaller and very small berries, and concentration is the word. I mean you get very concentrated grapes.

Or Nidbach: 49:08

Without doing so, this vineyard, we don't do anything. I mean you don't need to thin, it's all happened naturally because, because the vines are struggling, which is very good, and this is the perfect vineyard, you don't need to do anything, just let it grow, just pick on the right time and very cool, it's very good it was a very good, so was a good year 2020 very good one last question I have for you is how did the war, how has the war impacted you?

Or Nidbach: 49:49

well, it impacted a lot. I mean first, mentally, it was the hand of harvest. Um, we had almost 50 percent of the personnel were uh in reserve, including me and my uh philly culturist um and some of my walkers are still doing a lot of reserve and but it was at the end of harvest so it was okay for us and you can't complain when the country is in war. Specifically, in the vineyards. We didn't harvest one of our vineyards in the Galil, very high and mellow Morgaliot, which is also on the border with Lebanon. We thought we couldn't harvest the Malkia, the Caban Sauvignon, but at the end they did it.

Or Nidbach: 50:54

But we almost couldn't get to the vineyard. So one of the grower personnel, he went there, he gave us, he took the samples and he met one of our guys not on the border a bit and this is how we tasted, this is how we checked for the right ripening. So it wasn't easy but it could be much worse. We have one vineyard that got a direct hit. It was in the Golan, actually, it was a Tanat. So we lost a few vines, maybe like 40 or 50 vines. So we lost a few vines, maybe like 40 or 50 vines.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:44

The open fields in the Golan are all vineyards. It's crazy. You know this is Shetak Batur, another vineyard.

Or Nidbach: 51:57

It's amazing because the quality is good and we also had a problem with the personnel doing some end harvest, end pick. Some of our end pick vineyards were picked by machines because we didn't have a choice. But I think overall we don't have a lot to complain. I mean we did fine, maybe a little bit less on the personnel, but again the country is in war. We did a lot. We helped some other wineries that needed help from the borders and we did what we could. I mean we donated a lot of wines to soldiers and to reserves and we did what we could. I mean we donate a lot of wines to soldiers and to reserves and yep, but generally the wines are still good, no problems during the harvest and I expect them to be on the best quality still because it was a good harvest. Overall Poor.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:05

Toda Todaraba for being on the Kochi Terwa and for giving me the time. Thank you, no, thank you. It's great, it's great.

Or Nidbach: 53:14

Thank you for coming. It's a pleasure, always nice talking about wines. Yeah, the Sauvignon also opened up Then. More romantic now.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:33

This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Terwa, please check out our many past episodes.