Israeli Winery Tasting and History

S. Simon Jacob 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir . I'm Simon Jacob , your host for this episode from Jerusalem . Before we get started , I ask that , wherever you are , please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages . The following is part two of a two-part episode of The Kosher Terroir . With Sommelier Efi Kotz from Recanati Winery , located in the northern Galil , and with one of their winemakers , Shachar Mamor , I was invited up to see their winery , one of the most modern in Israel , and their brand new , beautifully appointed visitor center .

S. Simon Jacob 0:53

With all the friction on the Lebanese border and being located just 8 kilometers away , they have made the brave decision to get back into their pre-Gaza war lives and open up the Visitor Center for Business . Though there is currently just a trickle of tourists , I believe when word gets out , this will become a major wine destination . Part one is a walkthrough touring the facility , discussing many of the winery's capabilities and innovations . Part two is a tasting and review of some of their more innovative new wine offerings . If you're commuting in your car , please focus on the road and enjoy . If you're home , please choose a delicious kosher wine . Sit back and listen in on this very tempting wine adventure .

Efi Kotz 1:43

You came just on time . Tempting , wine adventure . Ah , Shachar , you came just on time , yes perfect , tell me a little bit about yourself .

S. Simon Jacob 1:51

You're the assistant winemaker here .

Shachar Mamor 1:53

No , we are two winemakers .

S. Simon Jacob 1:54

Just Kobi is the head winemaker .

Efi Kotz 1:56

There is no assistant . Yeah , I'm sorry . No , that's fine , that's why .

S. Simon Jacob 1:59

I asked , some wineries have . So you were originally from Arez .

Shachar Mamor 2:06

Yes , you went to school . Where Are you talking about winemaking school , or ?

S. Simon Jacob 2:13

are you going way back to ?

Shachar Mamor 2:14

this . How did you get here ? Okay , first of all , I grew up in an agricultural farm in Kvartavo , okay , one of the establishments .

Efi Kotz 2:24

Okay , one of the establishers .

Shachar Mamor 2:25

Okay , and we own vineyards . I planted vineyards there way back , but you know I grew up in a family farm without any viticulture in it yeah , although my grand-grandparents used to grow for the Baron Rothschild grapes , but it was ancient , just growing almonds , olives , that kind of stuff . And I went and studied psychology , but then I was in a search of soul search and decided to start working in some wineries . I worked in Amphora and then I said , okay , that's it , flew to Australia , studied at Curtin University , Margaret River , and then went back , worked in Carmel Winery as a winemaker and after that viticulturist in Netofa with Pierre and also assist as a winemaker there .

Efi Kotz 3:22

Even to hear Pierre talks about it . He's in love . Yeah , it was a special match .

Shachar Mamor 3:29

He's a special person . He's a real visionist , yeah , but after six years , and during that time I established my own vineyard . That's why I left Carmel . But after six years , in establishing also vineyards for Netofa when I joined they had only a few acres we planted some more varieties , some more vineyard blocks Came to a stage that it was enough for me and I approached You're an agronomist as well and I approached You're an agronomist as well .

Shachar Mamor 4:07

You study viticulture during your studies of winemaking , of oenology , I think , because I grew up in a farm and I'm more farmer than agronomist . Okay , my main is oenology , okay . Okay , my main is onology . Okay . But of course , in Recanati I assist and control quite a lot in the vineyards . So we have agronomists but we work very closely with him and we go around in the vineyards and we have all the full control . Kobi and I we're not regular winemakers because we visit the vineyards a lot . We know everything that happens there . It's not like sitting here and waiting for the grapes to arrive .

S. Simon Jacob 4:53

I saw the board downstairs to monitor the vineyards . Brilliant , absolutely brilliant . What a cool thing . I've never seen anything like that before .

Efi Kotz 5:03

It's the best wall you can ask for . Yeah , it's so cool Doing the season . It's the best thing to watch .

S. Simon Jacob 5:07

You can watch everything happening .

Shachar Mamor 5:10

Yeah , and it's very comfortable to use , although everything is on the computer as well , Of course . But yeah , especially in the harvest time , everything is a rush , so it's the best way to operate .

Efi Kotz 5:21

I just want to say L'chaim before .

S. Simon Jacob 5:26

L'Chaim . Before L'Chaim . Yeah , I haven't drank a wine with Shachar for a lot of time . Tell me what we're drinking . This is a Columbard . Yeah , this is Columbard . This is a white .

Shachar Mamor 5:31

Columbard . It's a white Columbard . It's a relatively new wine that we are making , second vintage , if I'm .

Efi Kotz 5:38

First there's a 22 .

Shachar Mamor 5:40

Ah , the 22 , right , the 23 . So yeah , 100% columbar from Telfar's vineyard . Okay , and you can fill it yourself , and then we can speak more about the production methods . I love it more than 23 . You know it's not a time point , that's so no right ? I thought you were 23, .

Efi Kotz 6:12

But he was wow . But he's already got the power . He has the power of his own and he's so sweet .

Shachar Mamor 6:20

I agree with you . Move to English , let's move to . English .

Efi Kotz 6:24

Yeah , okay , so it was off record .

S. Simon Jacob 6:27

No no .

Efi Kotz 6:29

That's what you said . Yeah , yeah .

S. Simon Jacob 6:30

I know you said this is nicer than the 23 .

Efi Kotz 6:34

I did . In my opinion , I prefer this one over the 23 . Although the 23 is not yet judgeable because it just bottled and not yet released to the market . We'll release it soon , when it will be ready . But the 23 , in my opinion , is a bit more fruit forward , not fruit forward . Power of the fruit is a bit more emphasized .

Shachar Mamor 6:54

I can understand why you say that . I mean the yield average yield was quite higher in 22 vintage through all the vineyards , including the Columbar and Telfarist . The 23 lower yield , more concentrated fruit , more so forth . But I think it's still . The 23 is still looking for its balance . It's going to be similar but , yeah , a bit more intense than the 22, . So I can relate to what you said . This one is thinner mineral saltiness .

Efi Kotz 7:24

Fun fact Yav from Yetefan was here last week and I gave them actually both to taste to Yav the 23 . I don't know why , but I had a bottle here . I think somebody wanted to taste here with somebody else and I guess I left a bottle , so I opened it accidentally . And then I opened the 22 as well and , comparing one to each other , most people will love the 23 Bor Obviously For no doubt Because it's more pronounced . It's pronounced exactly . The fruit is over there . I mean here . It's so mellow , so subtle .

Shachar Mamor 7:55

Yeah , this is more gastronomic wine . I mean , all of our wines are gastronomic in a way , what's amazed me so far in the tasting ?

S. Simon Jacob 8:02

it's not not amazing , because I've been drinking Kobe stuff for years . What's cool is the balance . The balance is just so there . There isn't anything that's like out of balance as you're drinking it . Where the rosé has acid , it has acid , but it's still . It's not like it's overpowering you . The Yonatan , the level of alcohol , is just it's not pushing against you . It's really just lovely , it's enjoyable . This is really really nice .

Efi Kotz 8:45

I think what you described is part of the vision of the winery , Exactly yeah .

S. Simon Jacob 8:49

So that's one of the questions I really have Is there a vision behind what's made here ? I know you know I'm asking to speak for you , not for Koby . Yeah , yeah , definitely , but I'm sure you're basically on the same page .

Shachar Mamor 9:04

Yeah , exactly , I mean , I think this is what got us to work together , because we , you know , I was interviewed , I came from , with my own history , yeah , and we understood that we are exactly on the same page .

Israeli Winemaking Vision and Varietals

Shachar Mamor 9:22

You know , sometimes we have to discuss and see , maybe here , maybe there , but the vision is quite similar and I think it's obviously it starts with the vineyards . I mean , we love growing Cabernet Sauvignon , we love growing Merlot , but only on some specific sites that we'll pronounce it the best . But we , you know , the Mediterranean vision is clearly here , on some specific sites that will pronounce it the best . But we , you know , the Mediterranean vision is clearly here . But for us , it's not only the variety , like Petit Syrah or Marcellin or Syrah , it's the way we grow the vineyards , the way we communicate with the climate here shaded vineyards , vines , early , early . For us it's exact timing for uh , for harvest every vineyards , through the , the vintage , we the the sampler , go twice a week so we won't uh miss the right timing we've discussed that , yeah yeah , I mean , this is so .

Shachar Mamor 10:24

This is . This is where we put the most effort during the vintage series .

S. Simon Jacob 10:30

We taste it . We taste it , we visit . It's hard to realize that winemakers can do that when they're moving so many bottles , when they're making so many bottles of wine . You have to have systems that are set up in such meticulous ways to be able to do that , so that it's not like you don't miss something and it's easy to miss it is . I thought that was tanks on the wall initially when I saw the squares , and then he said those are the actual . What do you call it ? Those are actually the , the squares are the tanks , no , no .

S. Simon Jacob 11:05

The vineyard the loch and the vineyard the loch , yeah , the other one is the tanks ? No , no . The vineyard , the loch and the vineyard . The loch , yeah the other one is the tanks , I know that , but they are not squares , it's like a table Like the table the round circles .

Efi Kotz 11:16

No , the round circle , the ones for tanks ? Yes , that's the circles , yes , the squares what you called is actually a

Efi Kotz 11:30

table just divided , not in a . In the laboratory you have one big wall with the table with the all the vineyards , yeah .

Shachar Mamor 11:32

And from the opposite side the square , are the tanks . Are the tanks ?

S. Simon Jacob 11:35

yeah , no , okay and that mimics what's . That's the manual backup to what's on the computers , which makes a whole lot of sense because if you can't , if the computers go down to say , okay , we don't know where anything is , it's Meshuggah .

Efi Kotz 11:50

It's crazy when you see it in your eyes during the season you can feel as much as more lines on the board , the happier people are .

Efi Kotz 12:02

In the beginning . It's nervous .

S. Simon Jacob 12:04

Especially the crosses on the videos Exactly when you see most of them crossed . People get much happier Right .

Efi Kotz 12:08

I can see that Because you see most of them crossed , people get much happier Right .

S. Simon Jacob 12:09

I can see that Because you're moving through , you're accomplishing something . You can see the progress .

Efi Kotz 12:14

You can see the progress . It's really something , because most works . Don't see the progress , it just happens .

S. Simon Jacob 12:20

Is there a varietal that you specifically really like ?

Shachar Mamor 12:25

There are a few Okay .

S. Simon Jacob 12:30

We don't grow most of them . No , I mean .

Shachar Mamor 12:31

Actually I'm curious . My favorite white is Riesling it's Riesling by far , johannesburg Riesling and the red is Pinot . It should be superb . I know it's hard and I will never grow Pinot in Israel . I mean , some wineries make beautiful wines from Pinot , but they are not varietal wines , so for me it's not Pinot , the only .

S. Simon Jacob 13:03

Pinot . Wait , there's two winemakers in Israel that make pinots that , I think , start to approach what you're talking about . One is Yaakov Oria , because he has thrown away more pinot than you can ever imagine , because he wants a specific thing to come out of it . The other one is Chivit .

Shachar Mamor 13:30

Rory .

S. Simon Jacob 13:32

He makes a Pinot now out of . Bittuni .

Shachar Mamor 13:38

Out of Bittuni , it's not out of Pinot . Okay , we're making something between Gamay and Pinot out of Bittuni From my perspective . So this one I appreciate and can relate , and Yaakov Uria is a very talented winemaker , but I still don't believe that in Israel it's the right variety to brew . No , I didn't say it's the right variety .

Efi Kotz 14:02

So it won't be Pinot . Shibi also makes Pinot , which is a very weird way . You can relate it to Pinot , but just not the classic Pinot that you want no no , no , it's the closest thing that you can relate to Oregon Pinot Noir . Okay , which is not the Pinot Noir ?

Shachar Mamor 14:17

And I say if you can make beautiful wines out of the right varieties , why waste your time on something that is similar .

S. Simon Jacob 14:25

That's one of the reasons why Chivy is interesting , because he said at least when I spoke to him he said most of the Israelis , most of the not most almost all of the Israeli indigenous varieties are all white . There was one red , I think . Out of all of the things that he's looked at , they're all whites . And why are we trying to make Cabernet and Merlot ?

Efi Kotz 14:56

That's the professor Shibi . I know that's the professor I agree Because he makes Cabernet and Merlot .

S. Simon Jacob 15:02

No , he does , he does Actually his .

Shachar Mamor 15:05

Merlot is not bad and it's not that Merlot . Sometimes it's a gamble you never know whether you grow it and it will be brilliant or disaster . And Cabernet Sauvignon . We have some great sites in Israel to grow Cabernet Sauvignon , but they should be specific . In the old days they used to grow Cabernet Sauvignon in Fort Tavaux . It doesn't make any sense . That's because they said we want Cabernet .

Efi Kotz 15:28

Yeah , kind of like everybody wanted Cabernet , but that's a lot of the Israeli wine history is based on . Oh , Cabernet is good , let's put it everywhere .

S. Simon Jacob 15:37

Yes .

Shachar Mamor 15:37

No , I'm , we are trying to change it . I mean entry level , mid range , more and more Mediterranean variety the Marcellin , the Petite Syrah , the Syrah we're giving them the right respect and space that they need . The whites , the Columbar for us it's quite diverse .

S. Simon Jacob 15:58

This is interesting .

Shachar Mamor 15:59

Yeah , and Marcellin is . It's amazing it's amazing the profile of red and rosé wine that you can make out of it .

Efi Kotz 16:11

We will soon taste the red one , and you will be amazed even more , because it's a rich red without the heaviness of Israeli climate which is amazing .

S. Simon Jacob 16:23

I love the aroma of Marcellin .

Shachar Mamor 16:26

Yeah , it has the lavender touch . He gave me the what do you call it ?

S. Simon Jacob 16:32

first , the petnat , the petnat . So even when you smell the petnat , it's beautiful , but there's something on an edge there with the smell , because it's a petnat , exactly . But as soon as you do the rosé afterwards it's like yeah , it's just perfect , it's really nice , it's lovely .

Efi Kotz 16:54

It's really unique in its varietal and it's actually one of the best suitable grapes to Israel , in my opinion that's a personal opinion you don't see a lot of Marcellin in Israel , but those who make Marcellin . You'll see a lot of different methods of making . I mean more powerful , less powerful , more oak , less oak . You can see a lot of expressions of Marcelan . All of them have something in common when you taste the wine individually , so it will be less or more alcoholic or ripe , but the flavor profile will probably remain on the same level of fruitness and herbaceous spices . That goes together and not in a heavy way , which is I never thought I would taste . 15% alcohol , two years in oak barrels , new oak , and still the flavor of the fruit is more powerful than the oak . Who make that ?

Shachar Mamor 17:47

Can we say that I don't know , not for the record , me but but .

S. Simon Jacob 17:51

but you know , that's one of the amazing it is they've come around in so many crazy ways he's like he's done crazy stuff really good stuff , right , I'm totally I was amazed from the marcel I'm totally amazed by him . And yeah , the other from the Marcelin , I'm totally amazed by him . And the other group is Agur . The two of them from Agur . Eyal and Elad .

Shachar Mamor 18:16

Elad is the CEO , but Eyal is the winemaker Eyal and Shivi .

Efi Kotz 18:23

Eyal and Shivi are the winemakers Shuki Shuki .

S. Simon Jacob 18:26

Shuki , Shivi , Shuki I know , it drives me crazy . It drives me crazy .

Efi Kotz 18:31

That's the reason why I was saying it before . Yeah , no , yeah , shooky and chicken the neighbors no shooky , shiki and shivy .

S. Simon Jacob 18:38

I was like okay , thank you , um no , bruchashem I . The question I have is what has been rikonati you ? Have you learned things here ? What you know like ? How much has it impacted you ?

Shachar Mamor 18:56

A lot . First , I believe that for the first time , I was engaged with a winemaker with the same vision and , in a way , the opportunity to complete each other me with my vineyard background and Kobe with his huge experience . I think it changed my I'm almost I'm going to start my sixth vintage in Reconati and I believe it changed my perspective in a way . You were asking about philosophy Before philosophy , or maybe it's part of philosophy . I came to a winery .

Shachar Mamor 19:44

When you're producing a wine like Yonatan , but you approach it like it was your most boutique , highly rated wine , I mean you control and you decide every vineyard block , from anywhere you get it , from the Galil , the Golan in the same way that you will approach this Shannon which I haven't talked about , by the way and I think it's even a bigger challenge because you are dealing with so many tanks and you have it's like a gestalt .

Shachar Mamor 20:20

You're taking a vineyard , maybe this one is medium range quality , that one is higher quality , the other one is higher quality and you have to get the right timing of harvesting and you have to vision the blend , the gestalt of the wine . And I think this is what blew my mind . I mean the way you can take so many particles and make it such an harmonic wine . This is something I haven't been experiencing in other , bigger wineries in the past , and it only happened in Recarati . I think the it's a beautiful thing . I think that the way you let your senses and creativity be pronounced and , besides being very practical and technological and visionist , it's something that I experienced as a fool only here and never before .

S. Simon Jacob 21:15

This is absolutely first-class in everything

Wine Tasting and Vineyard Stories

S. Simon Jacob 21:18

. This visitor center is like a dream . It's unbelievable . There isn't any detail that isn't done .

Efi Kotz 21:27

And we hope one day it will actually be full of customers . It would be good .

S. Simon Jacob 21:31

It will . I'm sure it will be good , because I can't . I'm looking at this and I'm going wow , I'm just , I am so happy I'm here today being able to see it without a million people all around me .

Efi Kotz 21:48

It's just it's going to be a million people . It's going to be a million people .

S. Simon Jacob 21:53

It really is , it's really special .

Efi Kotz 21:55

And , by the way , the Shannon , the 2021 vintage . The Shannon no , that's the other glass , the darker side . Now the Shannon is all . Until now , we haven't tried any oak twine . This is the first one that we tried , actually , that have been through barrels . This is a very unusual wine for us because it's in the single vineyard series , but if you saw the labels , the walls that we saw downstairs , with all the picture of the vines on the label , this is no wine on the picture . You can see the label .

Efi Kotz 22:33

This is the chameleon .

Efi Kotz 22:34

This is the chameleon , yeah , and that's actually as Kobi described it to me , as the chameleon is very adjustable to the climate and changes every time . And the same as this Shannon , which is very adjustable to the climate and changes every time . And the same is this Shannon , which is very different Every year , will give you a different kind of wine , although it's a Shannon . And what can be so different about Shannon ? This , for example , is the 2021 , while the 2019 was not yet released because it's not ready yet , and that's the reason that 2019 , which was a colder year , has the blue label the same chameleon in the blue shades , while 2021 was a bit I don't know if warmer is the right one , but let's say a bit hotter year , although 2020 , which was a very hot year , got the orange color . This is somewhere in between the purple , red orange and 2022 is . I clearly haven't seen it yet .

Shachar Mamor 23:36

Let me give you a background about this wine , because this wine we started producing during my first vintage in Reconati 2019 was the first , and I came with my knowledge of Chenin Blanc from Netofa . They have a brilliant vineyard in Endor which is a very warm place , by the way .

Efi Kotz 23:58

It's a very warm place .

Shachar Mamor 23:59

It's the same as this , yeah , but Chenin , although it's from Delaware , from different climate , it can deal with the hot weather , it can deal with different conditions . And it's from Delaware , from different climate , it can deal with the hot weather , it can deal with different conditions and it's so versatile . And then this vineyard is from 1975 . You're getting like very , very low yield every year . It's unirrigated at all . It's unirrigated , yeah , Just has its own balance . And we thought what will describe best this unique wine ? And we started brainstorming and each of us said by himself . And then we said one day and I told him you know , genesis Robinson , she wrote about this wine , it's the chameleon of the wine . And he said , wow , I just thought about this and it was out of this discussion . We decided the Zikit and then we started writing the description and everything . And there it came , and every vintage will get the different shades and use of the chameleon .

Efi Kotz 25:12

Now you drink kosher wine , so you're probably not familiar with older expressions of this vineyard , but I'm a great follower of this vineyard . For years it was used to be made by Soussoniam Zev Dunia , and his Chenin Blanc from this plot was I mean , it's one of the main things that was special about Soussoniam winery the gems , the Chenin Blanc was wow . And in 2020 , no 2019 , actually Recanati Winery invited me with a lot of different sommeliers . You were in the harvest To harvest in Gidron , gidron .

Efi Kotz 25:57

Gidron . Gidron and what are you going to harvest and ?

Efi Kotz 26:03

see that it's going to be a white wine . Who grows white grapes in those ? It's so hot . It's like what ? 30 meters above sea level ? No , it's not above , it's just slightly above sea level . And it's so hot in there , who grows grapes there ? And then I sort of went wow , it's crazy . It was the first harvest of rakanati , actually , and which is not yet released , which I really want to drink , because there is not a lot of wine that I can say . I harvest those balls .

Efi Kotz 26:33

you know it was a somali event so nobody really harvested anything but you drank we drank a lot of the canada wine day and it was a great experience to see how old wine really reacted , because there was almost no fruit on the vines .

Shachar Mamor 26:49

And relating to that , we always move in parallel lines . From one aspect , we're always searching for old vines in Israel because they are quite rare . I mean , this year we're going to try old vines of Carignan from the Zichron area . Our agronomist recommended and found it and we're going to try it . And of course we have the wild Carignan in the Judean Nile slopes .

S. Simon Jacob 27:15

Wild Carignan was the first Carignan I ever tasted .

Efi Kotz 27:18

I actually want to bring one more wine before Shachar is going to , work is going , but I want to taste one more wine with you .

Shachar Mamor 27:27

Okay , no , I'm good , so I was mentioning parallel lines . So , yeah , old vineyards , but always a search for new sites , exciting sites to plant vineyards . You obviously heard about the Odem series , so this is , you know , more than 1,000 meter above sea level , a very unique terroir Expression . Everything you grow there is . Yeah , the story about the Odem vineyard is the Odem project . Besides , recanati is signed by on the name of Ido Amar . He was the grower , he was the one that , the professional guy that that helped the other unexperienced grower to establish their vineyards because they are young people from the Odem village and also was the one who planted and grew our own project of Recanati , the only vineyard that is owned by Recanati , also in the Ramata Golan .

Efi Kotz 28:48

We own the land there .

Shachar Mamor 28:49

We don't own the land . They were a contract , A contract for many decades . And this is him . He died in tragic circumstances . While walking the field with a tractor , got hit by a small wire and just killed him on the spot on the vineyard , and he did an amazing job , amazing job . And after that it took us a long period to get back on the horse .

Israeli Wine Industry Growth and Regions

Efi Kotz 29:23

This is probably the most terroir-forward wine you can ask for . When you're talking about specific terroir and how to learn the terroir and to treat the grapes and plant and grow everything to really express the terroir and not just the result that you want to . You know that amount of fruit or anything like that .

Shachar Mamor 29:51

I have my own vineyards , okay , and I have the possibility in the future to make wines out of them . It won't be kosher , but it won't be kosher at this stage . It has to be kosher , you have to make kosher wine . But I want to touch , I know .

S. Simon Jacob 30:06

I know , I want to touch , I get you .

Efi Kotz 30:08

I hear you . It's not just about the touching For a winemaker in a small production to hire people to do the work instead of him it means the wine will have to be extremely expensive .

S. Simon Jacob 30:20

You're Jewish , they shouldn't have to do that . I agree If that was the Rabbanut way of looking at kosher it was much easier and better for all the industry it is .

S. Simon Jacob 30:33

Well , I don't care if there's hashgachot . There's some people who want hemesha hashgacha on wines and this , and that I don't care . If they want that , that's great . So you won't drink any wines , except they have this hashgacha . But don't tell me I can't drink Sfera , or I can't drink Margoliet , or I can't drink this , because you want to ban all of these people . Let me decide whether or not that's the level of kashut I want , rather than it be . So I'm not trying to make it a free-for-all , I just think , like it's , there's so many creative people here and there's so much incredible wine that's coming out so yeah .

S. Simon Jacob 31:17

Colby , I know from from his wines as well , brilliant , brilliant wines .

Efi Kotz 31:22

By the way , if you look at this industrial area in the blonde wines , I have some of his wines that are what he produced through .

S. Simon Jacob 31:28

Yossi , I have the white , I have the blonde .

Efi Kotz 31:34

In this industrial area you're going to have soon 15 wineries , I know .

S. Simon Jacob 31:39

I was going to say this is crazy . I came through here . I saw at least four wineries that I know .

Efi Kotz 31:45

Exactly , and when you think about Israeli wineries , you don't have to go that far to get so many different styles and producers that make quality , interesting wines We've had our house in Yerushalayim since 1984 .

S. Simon Jacob 32:04

But we didn't make Aliyah until eight years ago . Eight years ago we made Aliyah . When I made Aliyah eight years ago , there was maybe 30 wineries that were in Israel .

Efi Kotz 32:16

No , there were more . Eight years ago there were more .

S. Simon Jacob 32:19

It's now over 300 , probably over 400 wineries . It's crazy how many wineries are here and it's like it's unbelievable . It's wonderful , I love it .

Efi Kotz 32:34

Unfortunately , the north , which is the main , let's say , most of the wineries in Israel are up in the north . You have some in the Judean area , a lot of actually in the Jude . Yeah , you have some in the Judean area , a lot of actually in the Judean area . You have some in the coastal plains , like Shfela . Yeah , you have some in the Shomron , but really little amount .

S. Simon Jacob 32:53

Now there's a group in the Negev .

Efi Kotz 32:55

No , there is five main regions and most of them have some wines . When I'm saying some , I'm saying less than 30 wineries . For example , if you go to the north from the lower Galilee and up , you will find hundreds of wineries from small to big that produce a lot of interesting , very cool , very different kind of winemaking and different use , sometimes from the same varietals , sometimes even from the same vineyard , but you will find different expressions of different wines . And that's amazing to see because nobody treats the area as a region Right , as sometimes , in some time , maybe it should be a region , I think it will be .

S. Simon Jacob 33:36

I think it will be .

Efi Kotz 33:37

It might be not that far away .

S. Simon Jacob 33:38

No , no , I think it'll be because Judean Hills is trying very hard to make themselves that region .

Efi Kotz 33:45

They already made the recognition ? Yeah , they did , and I know that more parts the Negev is going to be the next one , probably .

S. Simon Jacob 33:51

No , but here absolutely has to be . It has to be .

Shachar Mamor 33:55

And there is the IPVO map that we developed in the Organization of .

Efi Kotz 33:59

Winemakers of Israel .

Shachar Mamor 34:01

A map of different regions and we're trying to make it official . You live where I live in photo . I came back after many years of travels and yeah , there is a big , that's right . No , it's an amazing region .

Efi Kotz 34:25

It's a place to just travel . It's so beautiful and you can see Jordan , Syria and Israel , which is crazy .

S. Simon Jacob 34:33

So he used to be the sommelier at the Mamilla Hotel .

Efi Kotz 34:36

Which is next to his house .

S. Simon Jacob 34:38

Next to my house . It's very inconvenient that he moved to the Gola .

Efi Kotz 34:43

No , but I kept the place in good hands . You did , you did , you did .

S. Simon Jacob 34:46

They're very good , they're very good , they're very good to me too . But even with that , it's so . My first question is what did you come here for ? And you can see .

Efi Kotz 35:00

You can look around , that's it I know you can look around . When people ask me from Jerusalem when are you coming back ? Have you ever been to the Golan the last two years ? No , okay . So when you do that , tell me when you're coming in . I live in a moshav which has no grocery store but has five wineries .

S. Simon Jacob 35:18

It's amazing , absolutely amazing . The winery here is just unbelievable . It it's amazing .

Efi Kotz 35:24

It's absolutely amazing . The winery here is just unbelievable .

Efi Kotz 35:28

It is a beautiful place and I wish someday this stupid war will be over . It will be just a memory , not a good one .

Shachar Mamor 35:35

Nah .

Efi Kotz 35:36

And this place will work normally , I mean right now . We decided we're opening the visiting center . We thought June is a nice month to start . It can be worse outside , it can be better outside . We will open . Let's

Israeli Wines and Terroir Discussion

Efi Kotz 35:51

see what happens . Even during we were downstairs , I got a phone call from Dalton Winery , the visiting center manager . I was like are you crazy ? Did you just open ? Because he saw , like I don't know the thing we send on flyers or by WhatsApp groups for the locals ? Did you really open the visiting center ? You saw what's going on outside , so you know what .

S. Simon Jacob 36:13

I'm so happy you said come Okay , because I said to him you know , I'm looking my watch every time there's a missile or what have you . My phone and my watch go off , and over Shabbat it was like crazy , it was absolutely crazy . It was just like on Friday night . It was like you had a good time in Kiflissim .

Shachar Mamor 36:39

Yeah , but I've heard I stayed tuned .

S. Simon Jacob 36:43

It was a crazy weekend and driving up here we saw fires along the sides of the roads and some of the fires in Svat . Right outside of Svat there was a fire , so we saw that . But you know what ? I'm so happy you said to come because it's there was no traffic it was a wonderful ride it was fast and it was just . There was no traffic . It was a wonderful ride . It was fast and it was just . It's just beautiful here .

Efi Kotz 37:11

I mean , it's absolutely beautiful it is , it is beautiful .

S. Simon Jacob 37:15

It's so crazy outside . Please God , it'll just be safe , I mean I chose to travel . All of these people from here , by the way , are my next-door neighbors in Jerusalem , because they moved half of what do you call it ?

Efi Kotz 37:28

Kerechmona and all of it .

S. Simon Jacob 37:31

They moved them all down to Yerushalayim and to that area and all between Yerushalayim and Tel Aviv .

Efi Kotz 37:38

People are really aware of the war in Gaza ?

S. Simon Jacob 37:40

Yeah , people talk about the war in .

Shachar Mamor 37:41

Gaza all the time , but people don't understand what's going on here . It's crazy .

S. Simon Jacob 37:44

That was the other reason I wanted to do the podcast .

Efi Kotz 37:47

Crazy situation outside and it's like what ? The eighth month we're doing this .

S. Simon Jacob 37:53

Yeah , the biggest . All the people who were down south moved home . Not all but most of them moved home .

Shachar Mamor 38:01

And it's going to happen sooner or later .

S. Simon Jacob 38:04

The people from north . Nobody moved home , Nobody can move back home .

Efi Kotz 38:06

I mean , we have one of the people who work in the winery , pitsy . She's in charge for the inventory of a lot of things in the winery . She lives in Iftach . She was evacuated at first and then she decided , oh , I'm going back home , I don't care .

Shachar Mamor 38:30

And she's probably the only living soul besides of the army in Liftaq . But she said I don't care , I go home . Yeah she .

Efi Kotz 38:33

She said I want my life back , even even if it's crazy , now crazy .

Shachar Mamor 38:35

Okay , it's a shame , but I have to move , it was a pleasure , thank you we're gonna try some reds now . Enjoy then .

S. Simon Jacob 38:44

No , todah , todah .

Efi Kotz 38:45

Okay , see you later . Bye , Bye , todah . We didn't talk about this one , but this is terroir . You see this ? This is the picture that you can see on the labels as well . This series of three barrels is actually planted on 1,050 meters above sea level height , and this is the chermonite , tel chermonite , which grows just before Emeka Bacha . The flower is the Rehkanadi logo , and then in the middle of each of them , there is the , the part in the vineyard that goes for the Zoroido .

Efi Kotz 39:22

And then you go up to the Hermon Mountain . This is Odem , which is the closest part of the Hermon . Now , this Sauvignon Blanc is when I tasted it . I tasted it before it was labeled . I came back from Miloim by the end of December and there were tastings here , so I said , oh , let me taste it . I haven't tasted wine for two months , so they gave me a taste and they tasted a lot of the different wines of the wine as well Galil and many more and I said , oh , so you're making like . And this was blind because they wanted to see . What do we think about the wine ? Not me , it was Asaf , kobi , shachar , and like're like . Really , that's what you think , because the Sauvignon Blanc is French , it's Loire , the bitterness , the green , the green fruit , the green grass , the oak , the fouille fumée , those areas , sancerre , fouille fumée , that's what I was thinking about . The limestone , the lime flavors .

S. Simon Jacob 40:21

It has all of those elements Exactly . It's really nice .

Efi Kotz 40:24

And I thought , oh so you're doing like Israeli Sauvignon Blanc , because we taste the Galil as well , comparing to like French , like really , that's what you think . And then the Merlot , like wow , what's that ? Pomerol , the land of Pomerol . And then they reveal the ball Odem . Where did that ?

S. Simon Jacob 40:40

come from .

Efi Kotz 40:40

It feels cold , right . It feels like cold Sauvignon Blanc , right ? Not the tropical New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc 100% .

S. Simon Jacob 40:48

And it's amazing , it's 100% . You're right .

Efi Kotz 40:52

And this is the uniqueness of the terroir in Odem . I'm going to put that here for a second . And come back with some red wines . So this is Bitouni , I love this wine . And come back with some red wines . So this is Bittuni , I love this wine , my favorite red . It's a red wine that you can just enjoy . You don't have to think about it too much , as I call it a fun wine . It's fruity , it's not tannic , almost at all . Yeah , yeah , no .

Efi Kotz 41:28

And the label is in three languages , which is not very common in our wines . Only two wines have that Hebrew , english and Arabic because it's grown by a Palestinian grower in a very unorthodox method of wine growing . As you can see , it's in a pergola . It's not a classic grape shape of wine making .

Efi Kotz 41:58

Yep , it's delicious , I can talk a lot about the wine , but I just enjoy it . Look at the color , look at that I know it's delicious .

Efi Kotz 42:03

I can talk a lot about the wine , but I just enjoy it Look at the color .

S. Simon Jacob 42:04

Look at that . I know it's just so . This is going to be incredible . The bettuni .

Efi Kotz 42:10

I enjoy it so much . I keep always a few bottles of this in my house . I put them in the refrigerator .

S. Simon Jacob 42:18

Yeah , because yes , so far as yeah because yes .

Efi Kotz 42:27

There's so much fun to drink .

Efi Kotz 42:30

It's amazing . This is the Carignan , which is also very light colored .

S. Simon Jacob 42:36

It's very light .

Efi Kotz 42:38

Now , the Bituni spent a year in barrels , the Carignan is un-oaked and the Bituni is whole clusters fermentation . This is a regular fermentation . Well , part of it is a little bit of clusters , but most of it is a regular fermentation . The idea of this carignan came actually to bring something younger to Carignan .

Efi Kotz 43:06

You know , the Carignan .

Efi Kotz 43:08

As you said , it was the first Carignan you've tried in Israel . It was the first one by far and it's very unique . It's a very old vine with no irrigation , in a low area . That gives you , as Shachar said , very low amount of yield , not much fruit In hundreds , not in thousands , of per dunam , which is nothing , and we try to make from this Karinyan the best we can , but it's a very limited amount . This planted next to the old vine carignan . It's just the next plot , just like a path between those two plots .

Efi Kotz 43:54

But this is young still irrigated .

Efi Kotz 43:57

It will also grow in the same goblet-growing pruning method , but it's still young . It's goblet growing pruning method but , it's still young . It's goblet . It is , but it's still young , so it doesn't really show the same as the Carignan that we know from here , and we hope that with time it will be in the same quality . But until that , we probably the only wine in Venezuela that says young vine on the label . Wow , you will see a lot of old wine , yeah , yeah , kvanit , bogot Kvanit . Bogot , kvanit , bogot , every 15-year-old vineyard is .

Efi Kotz 44:29

Kvanit Bogot , yeah , but nobody says Kvanit Zirot , which is funny . I tried the winery from Priorat in Spain . Yep , you know , even you know Memoria del Rambam . It's a cautious Spanish wine . It's a very interesting winery if you try it . By the way , spanish winemakers Jewish , but Spanish winemakers .

S. Simon Jacob 44:58

I know a number of them .

Efi Kotz 45:00

Not Elvian .

S. Simon Jacob 45:01

It's not Elvian , it's not what you call it , it's called Moria del Rambam , okay .

Efi Kotz 45:05

They are very unique wines . You'll probably love them , anyway . So he has plots of boval , yeah , boval , and he calls his 120-year-old boval old vines .

Efi Kotz 45:20

The 80-year-old boval is the lowest years , which is regular .

Efi Kotz 45:26

And here every 15 , every vineyard that comes to 15 is like old vines .

Efi Kotz 45:32

It's different , but anyway nobody calls it young vines .

Efi Kotz 45:36

And this is one of the most interesting examples of fresh , juicy , fruity kind of carignan with a lot of spices in the back , Earthiness that comes in the companion with the fruit and again something that you can drink in the summer it is really light and nice . There is tannins when they're here they grab you now .

Efi Kotz 46:12

But they're not too powerful or strong that you cannot drink .

Efi Kotz 46:17

And they actually combine together to a very elegant , nice wine that you can enjoy just like that . It's not a classy form of Carignan , and it's definitely not trying to be Pinot Gamay or any of those .

Efi Kotz 46:31

It's a light version of Carignan .

Efi Kotz 46:34

And it's beautiful because I mean we're now sitting in the air conditioning and everything is perfect , but outside it's almost 40 .

S. Simon Jacob 46:42

Yeah , outside it's really hot , but outside is almost 40 . Yeah .

Efi Kotz 46:44

Outside is really hot . That's not the best temperature to enjoy red wine and this one you can enjoy in the summer . Yeah no , it's very light . Just imagine you sit on your balcony and opening a bottle of wine .

Efi Kotz 46:54

Yep , 100% . That's the idea of it .

Efi Kotz 46:58

And together with the .

Efi Kotz 46:59

Petunia , I think maybe two of the lighter wines you will find in Israel

Exploring Unique Wines From Israel

Efi Kotz 47:08

Now . By the way , the Carignan the same as the Colombar , by the way is a series that released in the beginning only for restaurants and because of the high demand , we're actually releasing the next , the 23rd Colombar will be in a bit bigger amount , so it will be in a bit bigger amount , so it will be to stores as well . And the Carignan is actually we don't have much more to make , but we also will sell it in stores , but in a very specific store that can actually explain the wine , because if somebody will come to a store to look for wine and he will get this , he won't understand the uniqueness of this . This is a wine for people who already know big wines and know to enjoy the actually light , fun wines , not only the big bowl .

S. Simon Jacob 47:57

What's the pricing like on something like this ?

Efi Kotz 48:00

We sell it here , which is , I think , the average market price for 80 shekels . That means you can find it in less than , and the bettuni is priced where 109 .

S. Simon Jacob 48:13

109 . It really is interesting . It's really a .

Efi Kotz 48:17

The bettuni is one of my favorites .

S. Simon Jacob 48:19

It's almost like it makes me think of strawberries . Definitely , yeah , that's the profile flavor .

Efi Kotz 48:28

Like with Gamay . It's interesting . We said the Kashut says here , but it's actually supposed to be a full Nukhri . But I think we just don't write it on the wine , although it's in Arabic . Anyway , we started with the light ones , although they're a bit higher series . I'm skipping the Yonatan Red , which is also the same idea of the Yonatan White , but in red wine .

S. Simon Jacob 48:59

It's based on .

Efi Kotz 49:00

Syrah , Petitsia and Cabernet Sauvignon , and I'm actually switching to galil galil is this series . We didn't try galil so far .

Efi Kotz 49:08

Yes , galil is the mid-range of the winery okay it's priced for 60 shekels .

Efi Kotz 49:14

Usually before in my kim hakim and stuff , it's 2 410 okay , which makes it around 55 shekels the ball . And it's if take the Yonatan , which is a great value for money for a very simple , fun kind of wine . This is the value for money for the complexed wine it's , I think it's nine months , I can't remember six months in barrels , as you saw in the cellar , the barrel cellar . It's all 500 liters barrels . Most of them are not new , so we will get development but not overpowering anything .

S. Simon Jacob 49:54

Anyway , this is the Syrah . This has got such a beautiful .

Efi Kotz 49:59

I always bring it as an ace in wine tasting , usually blind tastings . I bring like three bottles in blind tasting . Two of them are like the Marcellana or something like that , and this , which is like half the price , and people always price it in the hundreds 150 and 200 .

S. Simon Jacob 50:18

Exactly , and this is a 55 , 60 shekels bottle .

Efi Kotz 50:21

Now , when you're a small producer , you cannot make this kind of quality in a… . Exactly , and this is a 55 , 60-shekel bottle .

Efi Kotz 50:26

Now , when you're a small producer , you cannot make this kind of quality in a In that price . But when you are our size producer , which is a big one not the biggest one , but in the big scale and you saw the things downstairs we don't just think about making a lot of wine . We think of the quality of each wine separately and how to make it better .

S. Simon Jacob 50:46

I saw that totally because there's no one who would keep that many tanks .

Efi Kotz 50:51

Small ones .

S. Simon Jacob 50:52

Yeah , in order to be able to keep everything separate .

Efi Kotz 50:56

On one hand we are a very big commercial winery , over a million bottles a year , but on the other hand we try to make it as boutique . It's not really boutique , but as a small producer as we can , because we try to keep it , you know loyal .

S. Simon Jacob 51:13

Who does that ? Who does that I ?

Efi Kotz 51:14

don't know . This is one of the reasons I wanted to work for Canadi and not for any other winery that was offered .

Efi Kotz 51:22

Alright , next wine .

Efi Kotz 51:24

Yes , this is Marcellin that I only brought because we already tasted two versions of Marcellin .

S. Simon Jacob 51:31

Yes , Now this is opened from yesterday .

Efi Kotz 51:34

Okay .

Efi Kotz 51:35

I opened it to a few people , a few guys actually from Jerusalem , that were here . So it's not as just open , it's a bit more .

S. Simon Jacob 51:47

I'm sorry . I really enjoy chocolate with red wine . Why not ? That's my craziness , I know .

Efi Kotz 51:53

But again , not to the very tannic ones . I mean , for the next one it won't work for you .

Efi Kotz 51:58

Actually , let me have the glass of yours and I can pour you some of these wines .

Efi Kotz 52:03

The wine .

S. Simon Jacob 52:04

Yes , so that it'll start .

Shachar Mamor 52:05

Because this wine needs time .

S. Simon Jacob 52:08

This is what Amaralot .

Efi Kotz 52:10

This is Amaralot . We've discussed Amaralot before . This is Amaralot . What we have now is Amar Salan coming from Kid Matzvi , only Kid Matatsvi , I live in Kilmatsvi so . I practically walk my dogs in the vineyard every day .

S. Simon Jacob 52:31

The columbard is wonderful , the one she took , which was the what you call Marsalan was just great .

Efi Kotz 52:41

Now this Marsalan , by the way , because the Guine Marseillan made from Marseille from two vineyards one in the Golan Heights , kib Matzvi , and one in the Golan Heights , telfaris which is lower Golan . Heights . This is 100% Kib Matzvi , but this is in a different part of the vineyard . You have two . You have several varietals , though , and you have one vineyard for Kikid Matsuika Marcellin for the red and you have one for Marseille , which is two different ones . They're not even close to each other .

Efi Kotz 53:11

And you can see the differences from many different aspects .

Efi Kotz 53:16

One of them is much windier , like really much more wind in the area , and one of them is a bit higher yeah , anyway , this was the Marcelin which is . I find it really delicious because it's there , it's present , it's rich and I have you know what ? Now , before I take any food , let's switch to the Cabernet .

S. Simon Jacob 53:38

Merlot . Right , you can see the this is the Merlot , this is the Sauvignon Blanc that we have . Yeah , this is the .

Efi Kotz 53:44

Cabernet this is a bit small . It's enlarged so it looks big , but it's , it's a much smaller , the Cabernet is the biggest one . Those two are small . We made around 3,000 balls of each . The Cabernet is a bit more 3,000 balls of each the Cabernet is a bit more . You can see there is three sub-plots of Cabernet . Two of them are from west to east and one is from south to north .

Efi Kotz 54:14

To south to get the differences inside to make the blend complex . The Cabernet is really rich and interesting A bit closed at the moment not yet really ready .

Efi Kotz 54:37

The Merlot is a bit more ready and although it's a Merlot and a Cabernet and a Sauvignon Blanc , which are not Mediterranean varietals , the growing , the making is suitable for the Mediterranean idea of the winery Are they Mediterranean no . Not anyhow .

Efi Kotz 54:54

But are they more ?

Efi Kotz 54:56

suitable of drinking in Israeli climate . Definitely the fruit feels cold . It's not ripe cherry chocolate , no , no , it's fresh red fruit . It's fresh herbaceous green .

S. Simon Jacob 55:10

It's balanced , it's a cross , but I'll tell you it's far less enjoyable than the others that you've had so far . The Sauvignon Blanc that was Odem was just has just such an interesting element to it . It's like it's tickling all of the things that you want it to do . This is it's new . What is it ? It's a 2020 .

Efi Kotz 55:51

So this has got years .

S. Simon Jacob 55:52

It's really close .

Efi Kotz 55:53

Anyway , I think we tasted the essence of Reconati winemaking . I didn't bring you all the classic .

Efi Kotz 56:00

No no no .

S. Simon Jacob 56:01

Thank you .

Efi Kotz 56:02

Those you can find anywhere , those it's a bit more difficult to find , and this , for example , it's not difficult to find .

S. Simon Jacob 56:11

Most of people just go past it . Yeah , they ignore it . What do you mean ? 50 ?

Efi Kotz 56:15

shekels of malt . No , it's probably . I will take that Give me a little more of the syrup , just a little bit .

Efi Kotz 56:24

When you think about gamla you say , oh , I'll pass right , by the way .

Efi Kotz 56:26

Gamla Sauvignon Blanc 2023, . Beautiful Like classical . New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc .

S. Simon Jacob 56:37

Yeah , but beautiful and not expensive . It's a Syrah . Each one of these is extremely balanced in the taste . You know what's funny about the ?

Efi Kotz 56:51

Syrah A month ago , something like that . Pierre was here .

S. Simon Jacob 56:55

Yeah .

Efi Kotz 56:56

And he gave me some wines to taste and I was like wow this .

Efi Kotz 56:59

Syrah is so good and for that price I must take a bottle to show my staff in the winery . So we took a bottle , of course . Two days ago Yav was here , the CEO for Netofan .

Efi Kotz 57:13

Yeah , yeah .

Efi Kotz 57:15

And he was here and we tasted some wines and I gave him the Syrah as well . I'm like wow this . Syrah is so good for this price , I must take a bottle for my staff . They both took the same bottle to show their staff Anyway . So this was like the idea of the Canati industry .

Efi Kotz 57:31

The industry making of wine . Now , of course , again off record , as in any other wine , you can see some things you like , more or less , but the idea is really different . They really want to bring terroir to the center , to bring less oak , less alcohol , just walk outside , sit outside and tell them that you want a powerful red wine . It's impossible , and we live here . It's where Mercanti really tries to make a difference . In that I love it and I wish it will work , because I mean , people are buying the wines but not enough people are knowing the idea behind Reconati .

Efi Kotz 58:16

People remember old Reconati , which was not amazing , right , but the change that Reconati , the transformation that happened in the last years , is amazing . I mean take the Yonatan .

S. Simon Jacob 58:28

It's amazing for what ? You pay for For the price . It's unbelievable .

Efi Kotz 58:31

And you saw the technology downstairs .

S. Simon Jacob 58:33

Yeah .

Efi Kotz 58:34

Two press machines .

S. Simon Jacob 58:34

It's become crazy .

Efi Kotz 58:37

It's all to make Even the cheapest wine really really high level and this is what I mean .

Efi Kotz 58:43

Most of the effort goes for the Yonatan , not for the Oden Oden is easy , just not ruin it .

Efi Kotz 58:48

To balance Yonatan is much more difficult .

S. Simon Jacob 58:51

Thank you very much for being on the Koshu .

Efi Kotz 58:53

Chihuahua , of course no , this is great , it's always great to see you and taste wine with you . It's always a pleasure . It's amazing for me . I with you . It's always a pleasure . It's amazing for me .

S. Simon Jacob 59:05

I'm glad you could see this , I really wanted to come and see it . Most of what I wanted to do was to be able to say , hey guys , we've got these wineries that are sitting here that are just special and they're open .

S. Simon Jacob 59:19

Come on . This is Simon Jacob , again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir . I have a personal request . No matter where you are or where you live , please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages . Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released . If you're new to the Kosher Terwa , please check out our many past episodes and thank you for listening to the Kosher Term .