S. Simon Jacob 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. The following is a conversation with one of the foremost personalities in the kosher wine industry the winemaker and owner of the tofu winery, Pierre Miodownik. Pierre's wine journey started in the Languedoc wine region of southern France. He started in 1982 by approaching non-kosher wineries to allow him to make kosher runs of their wines in their non-kosher facilities. In 1986, he successfully approached Baron Rothschild and several other fine Bordeaux wineries. In 1988, Pierre was approached by the Royal Wine Family and their partnership became kosher wine history, birthing many of the most memorable kosher wines ever made in history. In 2005, Pierre made aliyah to Israel and in 2006 planted his first vineyard under Mount Tabor for his new Netofa winery. This year is his 42nd vintage, including all of his European and Israeli production runs, and he is still running full steam ahead.

S. Simon Jacob 1:49

I was treated to a truly exceptional conversation in wine tasting in Natofa's newly expanded visitor center, along with Pierre and Natofa's CEO, Yair Teboulle. If you're commuting in your car, please focus on the road and enjoy. If you're home, please choose a delicious kosher Israeli wine and sit back and listen to a truly interesting conversation with this exceptional kosher wine making legend, Pierre. Welcome to The Kosher Terroir and thank you for having me here. You've grown the visitor center here so beautifully. It's amazing. When I was here last it was nowhere near all of this. There's a place for people to sit and eat. There's a place to have to taste wine. It's beautiful, beautiful. So it's a pleasure.

Pierre Miodownik 2:50

Thank you, thank you for saying yes. Thank you for coming. It's also a great pleasure, pleasure for me to serve you since time I didn't see you.

S. Simon Jacob 3:00

I know it's a long time. It's a long time we're hushed. What I want to talk to you about? A little bit about the past. How did you get started in wine? Where did the dream to be in wine start, or was there ever a dream?

Pierre Miodownik 3:21

So I'm not born from a family of wine makers. Yes, neither wine grover. It's good, it's good, neither wine grover, yeah. But I was born in part of France where wine growing was only industry. Yeah, yeah, it's called Languedoc. Languedoc is the south of France, north of Spain, it's a part of the border. So I grew in this atmosphere and I was a tire. I was every time I went to entire industry. Yes, okay. So first of all I was working in the winery, but in the winds, yeah, in the winds growing. Yes.

Yair Teboulle 4:25

After the vines yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 4:28

So I started to work in winery and in this time, you know, the best way to learn to make wine was not university, like today, to make exam in our university. The best way was to begin to work in winery and with a simple work and slowly, slowly to. So at this time I wasn't religious, but in some time it was. I spoke. I speak about the year 1980.

Pierre Miodownik 5:16

I began to make chiva. So when I make chiva I was thinking why not do some kosher wine In France? In this time you had only two, three wine kosher, but really simple wine kosher. And I said I said you have so good wine in France, why not try to do some better wine? And I did, and I did. So I began it when my first kosher wine was in 1982.

Pierre Miodownik 6:01

It was called the château de Parazza and at the same time the same cuvet, kosher cuvet, saved from this. It was I don't know if you know there is an appellation, it's called Minervois. Minervois is a smaller appellation of Languedoc and we received the gold medal for this cuvet. The château was so powerful to present this kosher cuvet. And two, three years I continued to make wine in Languedoc, in the south of France. Some vendor pay wine, red rosé. And in 1986, I had the chance to the opportunity to make wine in the château Shell Edmond Rothschild. It's called Au Medoc, from the Barot Edmond and Benjamin, not Rothschild. So it was in the 86th and it was the key to open doors from friends of Barot Edmond and to entine some very great winery. So in Sauterne, in Margaux, in Poyac, so in Wow, note that there yes.

Pierre Miodownik 7:42

And in 1983, we produced the first kosher great crew class. It was Chateau Giscours. And after that we produced Loville Poirfere, we produced Ponte Canet, some other great gros, malartic, la gravière, and all these with the help of the great company Royal Wine. Because since 1988, I was a European wine maker. For 30 years of Royal Wine I was producing, with Italian wines, the Portuguese wines, spanish wines, french wines for Royal Wine and in the what was it like then?

S. Simon Jacob 8:43

You know like one of my favorite wines is Ponte Canet. It's always been one of my favorites, Specifically the 03. I just love the 03.

Pierre Miodownik 8:57

I still have one bottle, only one bottle. That's what I have. I have one bottle left, one bottle.

S. Simon Jacob 9:02

I have one bottle left and it's amazing for me. What was it like in a place like Ponte Canet, or even in making kosher wine Like it's?

Pierre Miodownik 9:18

Wow, it's such a big deal. It's really a big deal because you know such winery, such a tour doesn't need to produce kosher wine to do business. So that's why.

S. Simon Jacob 9:42

Why did they agree?

Pierre Miodownik 9:44

So that's a question that. I have until this day, and I believe it's not only for business reasons, it's not for money, no not only for money. I'm sure we know that Hashem makes all the things in the world 100%.

Pierre Miodownik 10:04

But in every chateau that I did, I'm still doing some great chateaux, now also in France. Let's say a story of A spiritual story. Not only to do I can we. Now, for example, I produce a great Saint-Estef. It's called Chateau au Marbusé. Okay, one of the best Saint-Estef that Parker said it's unclassable, okay, okay, wow, the owner, mr Henri Duborski, one of the iconic owners of Chateau in Bordeaux, very well known For years and years. He doesn't want to do kosher wine. It refuses, not for me but for everybody.

Pierre Miodownik 11:08

And since two, three years it's now an old man. He accepts. As I said, wow, wow, wow. You sent me. I'm now very close to go to see the Lord. And I'm sure we have made kosher wine. You were like and we and I make another place. It's called Chateau cantonag brun.

S. Simon Jacob 11:38

Okay, cantonag brun yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 11:41

It was opened before 10 years when I made the first the owner. It's okay. The owner was a Jew, not a religious Jew, but a very big, insidious Jew in London. A Syrian Jew, yeah no.

Yair Teboulle 12:05

Okay.

Pierre Miodownik 12:08

So he owned this Chateau. Maybe he came one two times a year to visit. But so I know well the director of the Chateau. I approached him and I said we want to do cantonag brun, grit name, grit wine, grit Chateau. But I have to ask the owner. I can take the decision. I will be London in two weeks. There is a bar mitzvah from the sun under the Under, the under make bar mitzvah, and all with kosher, non kosher, cantonag brun. And he invited Rabbi to make a print, as they were sitting on the table with the director, the rabbi and the family of the owner, mr Khalabi, shimon Khalabi, and they say to the rabbi you don't want to drink wine. So the rabbi said no, it's not kosher. As he turned to the director, he said no, it's not kosher wine and I can't.

S. Simon Jacob 13:27

Kadosparho.

Pierre Miodownik 13:28

Kadosparho, and so the same thing in the Ponte Cane. I remember, mr Tissero, it was in the 2, 3, 2, 4. After we didn't produce Ponte Cane a long time, and now I know that wine is producing again. Ponte Cane, yes, ponte Cane. And every place, every simple place with the Green Chateau is a history. There is not only business relationships. Yes, wow.

Yair Teboulle 14:06

Very interesting.

Pierre Miodownik 14:08

And so I ended to work with Raya wine, because I make my halia and open up the Netto farm.

S. Simon Jacob 14:22

Why did you make halia? You were working well there.

Pierre Miodownik 14:25

Why did you decide to make halia Also, it's an opportunity from a chamber I had here in Netto Far some friends and they asked me one time we have an opportunity maybe to plant wings, Will I?

Pierre Miodownik 14:44

come and to help us to open a winery Winery why not? So you come to In the same time. They are in the Netto Far in the issue some place to build, to buy and to build the house. So I say it's an opportunity. You know, when I was young and 20, 21, I was few years in the Kibbutz in Israel, not far from Netto Far, and when I leave Israel it was just after the Kippur war. Kippur war, I was here in Israel. I said one time I will come back to live in Israel.

Pierre Miodownik 15:41

So in 2009, it was an opportunity to open the winery, to have the first winery, the first vintage in 2009, to have a new house and so, with a caliah and I don't regret anywhere and if you see now the situation in Europe, now in the States, the only place for the Jews is Israel. So it was also a great challenge to make wine in the Red Sea, in the Red Sea Codes. But I still work as a consultant from some countries, but only in the Great Chateau, like Omar Busey, like Carrillon d'Angelus, the Great Chateau d'Angelus, chateau Soutar and some other great wine. But my real challenge is to develop in Israel, in Galilee good wine and you know the wine of Netto Far.

Pierre Miodownik 17:09

There are special wines, not as special as Israeli wine, it's more in the French style, but we plant here in Netto Far, Because in Netto Far we don't buy any grapes. Everything is from the Chateau. We plant and we grow. We have a grower team. So what we plant, we plant. You know Galilee, Israel, it's Mediterranean climate, so we plant Mediterranean grapes like Syrah, Mourvet, Grenache, Roussin, for the wine, Chenin, also Tempani, Otorigo. You know only grapes from the South.

S. Simon Jacob 18:05

You didn't plant any Cabernet or Merlot. What happened For two?

Pierre Miodownik 18:09

reasons. First of all, when we opened the winery, I said to my partner if we plant the same things as others, what we need a new winery in Israel. And second thing, I'm really seeing that some grapes don't grow well in Israel, for example Pinot Noir I say also Merlot, so I didn't want to plant.

S. Simon Jacob 18:52

So you've been growing, from the very beginning, only Mediterranean varieties.

Pierre Miodownik 18:58

Yes, and we are not….

S. Simon Jacob 19:01

Rhone blends like a rhone blend.

Pierre Miodownik 19:05

Yes, it's really rhone style wines.

S. Simon Jacob 19:11

What has been your experience, since you've been growing and planting here in Israel?

Pierre Miodownik 19:19

in the.

S. Simon Jacob 19:19

Tokyo. What you mean, what's? I know you're successful here, ruch Hashem. What were the challenges that you found here in Israel?

Pierre Miodownik 19:34

So, first of all, as I explained you, it's a great satisfaction yes to, to vinify in Israel. Israel is not a simple win yarn, it's a red coders, so it's a very great. But also we have to, you know, a winery every part in the world, also in Israel. It's love to to to. Only what's there must to be efficient yes it's not only your dream.

Pierre Miodownik 20:20

You have to, we are working, we are working, we have to produce and to sell, and so it's also challenging and for that I said I wanted to do here, in the same way we produce in France. What is the same way? Yeah, we have to respect the grapes. We have to accompany all the wine for the during the vinification. You know, the wine maker is nothing, it's also another, some, some body. We are comparing, yeah, what, what the nature gives, as, first of all, we have to have good grapes, and with good grapes. You know it's really easy, but you know we are very small in the yeah. Yeah, as human, you are very small and the one maker we are a small part of the part, and you know you know the ego of some wine maker.

Pierre Miodownik 21:30

Yes, yeah, and so it's not my way. Now we produce.

S. Simon Jacob 21:40

I produce a winery frame 43 vintage this year this year no, can't be 43 42 40, no 43, 43, vintage, 47, 43 making one for 43 years.

Pierre Miodownik 22:01

Yes, no form for 80 82 since 1980. Maybe it's a 42, 43 yeah it's probably 42.

Pierre Miodownik 22:12

Yes, okay, so 82, so I saw where I learn. Every time we were you learn something new, yeah, but what I learned first of all is to, to, to here and to, to show, to look, yeah, what the old wine maker are doing, yes, and you know. And the more simple you do, yeah, it's the best, and that's a problem. And now in the modern vinification, maybe, no, everybody things that you have to change, new, new bulk, new barrels, stone bulk, yeah, we don't use. We need now steel bulk with all. But as now they come back they say, no, maybe it's better, so you don't have to. To have no certitude, to be sure, yes, no, we have to change.

Pierre Miodownik 23:36

You know, I make I have I spoke about in France a shuttle or marbusé, a center step, and he make, maybe during the vinification, one or two, one or two remontage, no, remontage yes, yeah to mix yes and and for for certain one acre, you have to do three, four fire montage per day yes so it's that's my way, that's the way that I will continue in net of fire. And but what's him? You know, the wind was wonderful, it's wonderful and you have something else that very important for me that's. It also is maybe strange, but I'm sure that the wine need the contact with the way maker. Yeah, so sometimes I don't need to be in my barrel you don't have to be in the barrel.

Growing and Expanding The Kosher Wine Market

Pierre Miodownik 24:48

Yes, but I'm visiting the, the barrels. I spoke with him why. You know I do like that. On the, how do you today what and especially in the barrel especially in this time.

Pierre Miodownik 25:05

Yeah, because our site of production is near the Lebanon border and all the day you hear boom and you know it's not so dangerous because it's little so far from the real border, right. But I say I need to be with a barrel, with the barrels. You know they don't like that, this atmosphere, right. So I think it's very, very important for when the Kurt was the cashier, the contact where is it where?

S. Simon Jacob 25:42

where is your production near Dishon?

Pierre Miodownik 25:45

no it's near. It's in the in the industry of Dalton. Okay, you know, it's in front of Dalton winery. You have a deal, dalton camisa. Yeah yeah so we are but all the grapes are grown where?

S. Simon Jacob 26:07

in the top five?

Pierre Miodownik 26:08

no no, it's a grand for five kilo kilometer from here. Okay, near Montabor, okay, okay.

S. Simon Jacob 26:18

In only one plot our winds are only in the same in the same place place yeah so there's a there's a team that watches the grapes, that that maintains the yes we are the wine.

Pierre Miodownik 26:34

Wine win, win grow of director can right manail coming and his job is, so I give him instruction description what. I need every time doing the green and and after we we peak.

S. Simon Jacob 26:56

Then it goes again what are your future plans? Do you have future plans for what you want to grow or things that you want to do differently? Or I mean, this is grown into so much more than what it was.

Pierre Miodownik 27:11

I don't know if you know now all our wine, but I don't.

S. Simon Jacob 27:16

I just saw one with a new label with a blue outside label. We will test it after that.

Pierre Miodownik 27:23

So, as the blue label, it's a brand called Matspen. Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob 27:26

Matspen.

Pierre Miodownik 27:27

Matspen. You know what Matspen is? King, king, compass, compass. Yeah, it's.

S. Simon Jacob 27:32

Compass, Compass right.

Pierre Miodownik 27:34

And you know every time, in the same ID, to know, to appreciate the wine of Netofar. You have to know where you're going what you expect. So as, for example, we produce this, and I still do here, do in Netofar, some wines that are unexpected in France, this Matspen is a good example. We have a Matspen. It's called Tour Siro. It's half Touriga National and half Siro, so it's not a common blend, but you will see it's done really good wine, very successful and very. You can age it for years or so.

S. Simon Jacob 28:38

You know our wine door, yes, door, sure, okay. So it's, I still have, I still am drinking from 2013.

Pierre Miodownik 28:46

2013. You still have a lot, or not?

S. Simon Jacob 28:51

I have some.

Pierre Miodownik 28:52

I think you have to drink it yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm drinking, but it's been doing very well. And my server.

S. Simon Jacob 28:59

My server has been doing very well.

Pierre Miodownik 29:03

And after that we give you to test some other vintage. And so that's our challenge. We don't want to be like a really big company to produce millions of bottles. We have to grow. We have to grow, but we are growing slowly but surely Our market, especially in Israel, but also in the States also in Europe, yet are growing, and it's also amazing to see that the US market and the Israel market don't have the same taste.

S. Simon Jacob 29:53

Yes, they do not.

Pierre Miodownik 29:54

We have a wine. It's called Tel Kasser. Tel Kasser, the head, tel Kasser with Gronach and Syrah. We are surprised for the success in the state of this wine. Wow, maybe it's one of we are working with the wine. Wine is our important and he sent the purchase order. Purchase order. But in Israel we have another taste. They are like Latour.

S. Simon Jacob 30:34

They are like Latour here, latour.

Pierre Miodownik 30:36

Netouka, with the more classic wine of Syrah and the Mouvedre. And you ask what I still expect of V5, we develop in France. I said we begin to work with very, really great chateau, like chateau angélues, and why not one time to make Petrus?

S. Simon Jacob 31:06

I'll arrive, I'll arrive, I'm waiting.

Pierre Miodownik 31:11

So we still have some grid gold in France, if it's possible.

S. Simon Jacob 31:17

Yes, I would love it If you could find a way to make chateau Petrus.

Israeli and French Wines

Pierre Miodownik 31:23

So you spoke about Ponte Cane, 2003. In 2003, you have maybe five, six grid grots, grid grots, kosher, and now, 20 years after, you have a long list. When I develop some other, I do, somebody do also chateau, valandro, chateau, mr Lafite, so somebody who want to drink now good kosher wine, french good kosher wine. You have a very, very big list. And same thing in Israel. I'm very happy to see the development of the wine industry. You know the chateau, the Domaine Castel, before 20 years, one of the first good Israeli wine.

S. Simon Jacob 32:22

Well, at least French style is relevant, but it was also good, you're right.

Pierre Miodownik 32:29

And now you have some good production in Israel. I'm very, not so satisfied. Yes, and also I saw the evolution of the Israeli consumer demand and test when we begin to produce here in Netofa in 2009,. People were asking red, only red wine. We need red wine, and now we don't have any rosé. We don't have enough rosé. We don't have enough white wine for the demand. Every sailor's winery has the same problem. That's good, because Israel is a one country, one country. We have to drink a lot of white, a lot of rosé.

S. Simon Jacob 33:29

So I'd love to try some wine with you. Okay, we'll go over there. Can we go over there? We'll go over there. Where do you want to start?

Pierre Miodownik 33:37

To white. Yes to white and after we will drink some red. Let me explain some things that maybe you don't know.

S. Simon Jacob 33:51

There's a lot that I don't know.

Pierre Miodownik 33:55

We had first of all Chinatulita, can can. Chinatulita 20 years, and just before that we have a growing of the sales. So we finish very quickly our white and rosé wine and so we start to produce. You know, we had a brand, it's called Domaine.

Yair Teboulle 34:26

It was our first level wine.

Pierre Miodownik 34:29

So we stopped to produce. But we we had. We were in a lack of white and rosé wine for months, Both because due to the Chinatulita. So we had an idea to produce in France, in Languedoc, Wine that we labelled Marseille, Marseille by Netofa Wow, but it's French wine and it's replaced the brand Domaine. Okay, and and why Marseille? You know, it's called LA Marseille Ben Israël and the idea here is LA Marseille Pierre during his, his way to to to to.

Pierre Miodownik 35:25

As you will see, it's a very, very interesting wine. Okay, in the, in the, it's made. It's made with a green ash, white green ash, and fermentino, fermentino. It's it's grapes who go in Italy and in province, in Languedoc. So a table wine, a Tuesday wine, yeah, very very nice, it's lovely.

Pierre Miodownik 36:00

It's our, it's our, our first price. Well, I mean Lovely nice tasting. So we have, we have a brand with red, rosé, white, I do. It's made in France, it's called, and we, we important, and we will. Now we will develop certainly this brand with maybe a Bordeaux, maybe a Burgundy wine, you know.

S. Simon Jacob 36:42

Wow. So how do you? How do you import it? Do you import it in in the bottles?

Pierre Miodownik 36:47

We. We bottled in France and the nice wine, tasty wine, for the sale price is 80, 80, 85. Shackles Wow.

S. Simon Jacob 37:11

No, it's very lovely. It's very fresh and delicious.

Pierre Miodownik 37:20

It's fresh, lovely and we have a good succcing with it, with this brand. You know, we, in maybe one month we will have our rosé at 23. 23.

S. Simon Jacob 37:35

23.

Pierre Miodownik 37:35

23. And also our first white wine.

S. Simon Jacob 37:39

Yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 37:39

You know, since almost two years ago, we don't have. We like tamakiroto. They are telkasser, lava, roussin, roussin. Maybe you know him. No, I know him. So, yeah, so you will drink, I think, the 2020. I like this wine because it's very amazing wine. You know, every Dakka, every minute it opens up. And you will discover something else.

S. Simon Jacob 38:13

This is beautiful?

Pierre Miodownik 38:14

No, no, it's beautiful If it is a typical white wine for fish you know to drink with fish and this kind of wine that we are drinking, the telkasser roussin. You can't combine meat, yeah Not red or nothing, no, but spice.

S. Simon Jacob 38:35

You can do it with spice. Very flavorful foods.

Pierre Miodownik 38:39

Yes.

S. Simon Jacob 38:40

You can do it with even spicy.

Pierre Miodownik 38:42

And with poultry, yeah With poultry.

S. Simon Jacob 38:44

Yeah, this is much better. With this, you can drink sitting on your porch with nothing, no food, nothing. This is for food. This is for. This is to accompany a meal. It's to accompany a meal, certainly 100%.

Pierre Miodownik 38:58

You spoke about the Rhone Valley style. Yeah, you know, roussin is come from the Rhone Valley as well and it's typically like a white from Rhone Valley, like Hermitage Croix Hermitage. First of all, I spoke, something we do in France, I also read, also Marseille. I went to Théâtre it's a GSM, yes, Wow. So just to have an idea. So it's also first level wine. It's replaced the domain, it's a GSM from Languedoc. Okay, no wood, no edging barrels, but also Tuesday wine.

S. Simon Jacob 39:47

Yeah, it's a great. Yeah, it's a nice entry wine.

Pierre Miodownik 39:58

If you want to taste something, especially if it's a bit. But I chose for you some red wine, something like that, and we will serve it, for you know what is Coravin?

S. Simon Jacob 40:09

Yes, coravin yes.

Pierre Miodownik 40:15

So we spoke about the new label, the blue label.

S. Simon Jacob 40:18

Matt's Bin yes. You know, I didn't know it was multiple wines. I didn't know that it was multiple wines. Matt's Bin Ken Is not just one varietal, it's. You have two, okay.

Pierre Miodownik 40:35

Two, as we have one. It's GSM, pure GSM, yeah. And then we have Grenin, syrah, mourved, third, third, third, aged for 15 months in the barrels. And after we have the Tursil, the Turiga and Syrah 50-50, also 15 years in barrels, we still have Okay opened from yesterday with Coravin. Okay, as I want the GSM. First, there's no GSM, okay, well, as a typical GSM 2021, mourved. You have the noise of the Syrah and the goof of the Garnache and the. It's lovely, Also wines, and you can age for years, there is no problem. 21 was the years before the Schmitters, yeah, and it will be like the 23, the year after Schmitters. So we received a brah-rah, so a nice year. 23 also will be a very good year.

S. Simon Jacob 42:05

This okay. So this again. This is the GSM. It's a typical.

Pierre Miodownik 42:09

GSM, gsm.

S. Simon Jacob 42:12

Sleet third, third, third, third.

Pierre Miodownik 42:16

As now you can smell more. Maybe the Syrah, a rumote, yeah, but with the thyme, you know, the Syrah is a little bit. Goes down descent and the Garnache Mourved, mourved it's a Come down.

S. Simon Jacob 42:34

It's lovely. It's lovely wine, it's well made, it's very balanced, it's classic, very classic.

Pierre Miodownik 42:40

We have a great development with the GSM in the state. Now we will taste the Toursir, as now it's the Toursir, it's the Touriga and the and the Syrah. That's very special, if you, it's not accompanied a lamb Lamb.

S. Simon Jacob 43:08

Lamb, lamb yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 43:10

They're in lamb there. I must say to you that today, today, it's my favourite wine of the world Favorite wine.

S. Simon Jacob 43:19

It's lovely, it's.

Pierre Miodownik 43:22

It's nice, huh. And also wine you can add for a few years and it's delicious. You know I have a good relationship in all the producers we had in France, yeah, so when I visit them I bring with me some bottle of Neto Far.

S. Simon Jacob 43:50

Yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 43:52

And I pour them to. You know, when you are in the great great, if I bring a bottle of Latour or Toursir or or, you know it's not the same level, yeah, but when they say me, pierre, it's a good wine, it's my satisfaction, wow. And they said that, huh, I bring when it's made with Mouvedre, you know, the Telcassez Varo, the Seagull can Can. So I bring one bottle to one of the chateaux. They really liked it, and every time they say when come back, bring me another. So for me, you know it's a great satisfaction.

Pierre Miodownik 44:45

You know when the coast is empty. If you still have some perfume, that means that it's a good wine. If you have a default in the wine, you smell it immediately.

S. Simon Jacob 45:00

Very lovely, very lovely, both of them. The two, the GSC and the S&M. Yes, the GSC and the S&M, but it's two different wines, they're very different.

Pierre Miodownik 45:11

But and we do small production, not because we don't have enough. First of all because in 21 it was the first year. So we make small production but we don't have. We can't develop a great production because we don't have enough grapes.

S. Simon Jacob 45:29

Grapes.

Pierre Miodownik 45:30

Grapes. Yeah, we spoke about the door 13.

S. Simon Jacob 45:37

Yeah, yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 45:39

So we will test three doors the 16. Yeah, 16, 16, 17 and 18. 18. And for 18.? So we will bring the 18. We produce 16, 17, 18 after we jump to 21. But 21, it's not now on the market. We don't produce in 19 and in 20. You know, the concept of door is to win. If I only it's a 100%.

S. Simon Jacob 46:18

Syrah 100% Syrah.

Pierre Miodownik 46:19

Only if you had a good Syrah, great Syrah.

Yair Teboulle 46:24

Right.

Pierre Miodownik 46:26

So, and we produce in 2023 also. So the 16 is not Syrah, it's Tempranio. Okay, it's Tempranio. After we come back to Syrah for the two other years. The 13 was also Syrah yeah, it was also Syrah, yeah. And 2003 we will have a Syrah and a small batch of Turiga.

S. Simon Jacob 47:00

So the first one we're going to taste is the 14. Is the 16. The first one is the 16.

Pierre Miodownik 47:06

So it's Tempranio.

S. Simon Jacob 47:08

Yes, it's Tempranio.

Pierre Miodownik 47:09

It's like all the Chiora wine. You can see the colors.

S. Simon Jacob 47:15

Yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 47:17

And typically lighter.

S. Simon Jacob 47:19

The goal of door was to make something that would age over a long period of time.

Pierre Miodownik 47:26

Yeah, but you have a limit, you know, to age. Yes, lama, what's the limit? The limit, first of all, it's when somebody buy, for example, a case of door.

S. Simon Jacob 47:40

Yes.

Pierre Miodownik 47:43

And they say like JJ Gailer, who made a drink in 10 years.

S. Simon Jacob 47:48

Yes, who in 20 years.

Pierre Miodownik 47:51

I every time say two, every two, three years. Drink a bottle. If you want you know. If you see that I agree, Is it finishing Then finishing? So finish your case. I don't know. Don't wait another 10 years for one. That's why I say now the Cira 2013. Yes, she's still very nice, but I don't see him four or five years more.

S. Simon Jacob 48:26

That's exactly what I've been doing. I've been drinking it. I take a bottle out every year. Yes, I drink six months and drink it.

Pierre Miodownik 48:37

That's the best way to see first of all, to see the evolution, the coming down.

S. Simon Jacob 48:43

That's amazing.

Pierre Miodownik 48:47

As a law firm test. I really like the Tempranio in 16, like Riora the Toursir. You know we had very difficult to sell in Israel Tempranio Toursir. Even the Cira. Cira is more accepted.

S. Simon Jacob 49:12

In America it's very difficult to sell any of them. I know it's gotten better. It's gotten better over the last two years. People have gotten more accepting of Cira, also in America. There's some in Cira.

Pierre Miodownik 49:31

For me.

S. Simon Jacob 49:32

I say the Cira is the best grapes for Israel, for Israel.

Pierre Miodownik 49:36

Yes, yes, also this with lamb Lamb and not heavy red meat Meat. No, no, but.

S. Simon Jacob 49:48

No, this is yes. It's opened up. This is Cira Spicerie. It's really really good.

Yair Teboulle 49:57

We have a Spicerie.

Pierre Miodownik 49:58

Spicerie, we have a Spicerie, we have a Spicerie, we have a Spicerie. Really, we don't sell it. I like it, I like it, I like it.

S. Simon Jacob 50:08

This is delicious.

Pierre Miodownik 50:09

I haven't tried this one.

S. Simon Jacob 50:10

This is delicious. I haven't tried one. No it was a Greek, yours. This is absolutely delicious. This is.

Yair Teboulle 50:18

This is what year 17.

Pierre Miodownik 50:20

It's 17. 17. Yes, yes, this one is good.

S. Simon Jacob 50:26

Yes, this is delicious. This is crazy delicious.

Pierre Miodownik 50:34

Yes, it's a window food. What?

Yair Teboulle 50:37

It is wonderful. It's a wonderful wine. I haven't tried it. I haven't tried it.

S. Simon Jacob 50:41

I just I said to them I said wow, this is the 17 door and it's just and it's a 100% Syrah and it is just lovely.

Pierre Miodownik 50:55

I'm not sure that you can find it even in the shops.

Yair Teboulle 50:59

No, you won't find it anywhere. You won't find it anywhere.

Pierre Miodownik 51:06

Kosher winecom. Maybe he has, you know, I don't know. He did a great job, kosher winecom.

S. Simon Jacob 51:16

That's lovely it is. Wow, it's surprising.

Pierre Miodownik 51:20

Yeah.

Yair Teboulle 51:20

It's surprising we haven't tried it, I think, for a long time. Yeah.

Pierre Miodownik 51:25

I didn't taste it in the first place.

S. Simon Jacob 51:27

You know I found that a lot of the wines people taste them too early and they make a judgment and they say, oh no, no, this is not good and what have you? Is that true? And you've got to give it a little bit of time, and I really find that after, whenever people say that to me, I go okay, good, I just put mine in the back of the cellar and I come back to it later, and it's so much better. It's so much better. So I don't know. You haven't tried it.

Yair Teboulle 52:05

You have not tasted the Latour, the Casso. Have you tried it? Maybe have you tried the Latour and the Casso.

Pierre Miodownik 52:14

No, maybe it's the Latour that's here.

Yair Teboulle 52:16

The Latour and the Casso. I think I see that you haven't tried the Latour.

S. Simon Jacob 52:21

No, I have the Latour that I have is also, I mean 2014. 2014?

Yair Teboulle 52:28

Yeah, latour it's the only one that we don't have. We have the 11, the 12, the 13,. We don't have the 14.

S. Simon Jacob 52:38

And I think I have 14. Really, either 13 or 14. I think it's 13 is beautiful, yeah, but the Latour is lovely, yeah, casso.

Yair Teboulle 52:49

I think the Latour is one of the best VFMs in.

Pierre Miodownik 52:52

Israel. The Latour is classy. Yeah, everybody likes it.

Yair Teboulle 52:57

Have you tried them at Spen's already.

S. Simon Jacob 52:59

Yeah.

Yair Teboulle 53:00

I'm really impressed. It's the first time drinking them.

S. Simon Jacob 53:03

Yes, oh yeah. Then at Spen I saw somebody asked about it on the wine blog and I said where did that come from? You know, like, where is that from? And I said this is a I'm a Tofa. Well, I got to talk to Pierre. I got to find out what's going on with this, but they're lovely both of them.

Yair Teboulle 53:23

Yeah, have you tried. It's your first time trying them yeah absolutely First time.

S. Simon Jacob 53:28

How old are they? They're not old.

Yair Teboulle 53:31

No, I think March, we got it out. Yeah, it's this year. Yeah, this year. Yeah, yeah, this year.

S. Simon Jacob 53:37

No, I didn't try.

Pierre Miodownik 53:39

I didn't try it was March, yeah, june, may-june, yeah, no, and I said 18. It was the 18. Also, Syrah, syrah, 18. Is the Latour meat, your chain? I don't know, the same as the Tecno. The Slushest Slices is beautiful, yeah, no, but you know what? I would love to taste it again. Yeah, slushest Slices is beautiful.

Yair Teboulle 53:59

Yeah, slushest Slices is beautiful.

Pierre Miodownik 54:00

Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob 54:01

No, but you know what I would love to taste it again.

Yair Teboulle 54:03

Yeah, slushest Slices is beautiful. Yeah, slushest Slices.

S. Simon Jacob 54:06

Because I have that. I think it's Slushest Slices or Oba Sre.

Yair Teboulle 54:11

I have to check. You have a big sin Oba. Sre was pretty much similar to when. Vintage-wise, it was pretty much similar to 18 that we drink in the door right now. It was a hot year, nakhon. I remember, nakhon. What's your name? Oba? Sre was a hot year, yes, very hot, and we got wine pretty similar to 18. 18 also Was that the. Sira specifically, the Sira specifically went. It was, I think, one weekend that we waited.

Pierre Miodownik 54:54

We went to pick the Yomshishi but we said, okay, we wait.

Yair Teboulle 55:01

It's so hard to pick the Yomshishi.

Pierre Miodownik 55:04

You know, in two days the.

Yair Teboulle 55:05

Sira jumped, it's another whole world. Yeah, I think this one is 15. It was the only year, the one and only year, that we had wine with 15% alcohol. This one, so 14, was pretty much similar to 18.

S. Simon Jacob 55:24

So this one is what this one is.

Yair Teboulle 55:27

Dorsira 18. You get a different wine.

Pierre Miodownik 55:40

It's amazingly different wine, totally different than the first 17.

S. Simon Jacob 55:46

Right, it's not bad.

Pierre Miodownik 55:50

No, it's not bad at all.

S. Simon Jacob 55:53

The 17 is amazing.

Yair Teboulle 55:57

This is not a typical length of wine. If you ask me the Dorsira 18, it's not typical length of wine. Why it's too forward? It's probably too forward. People like it. Israeli customers like it. I think US customers are less sophisticated customers.

S. Simon Jacob 56:19

Like Fruit Ford wine. You have to make a living too.

Yair Teboulle 56:26

Even though it's 15% alcohol, it doesn't bother me.

S. Simon Jacob 56:35

No neither of them bother me this one is 14 alcohol. The 19 is 15.

Pierre Miodownik 56:43

Can I fill it?

S. Simon Jacob 56:47

No, but it doesn't feel Alcoholic, it doesn't feel alcohol. It's not hot.

Yair Teboulle 56:56

To put it away. Put your first order.

Pierre Miodownik 57:01

The Zlatour, syrah Mourvedre. I'll show you this Beautiful Ten years. Ten years, it's a 13. 13 was in the beginning very close here, but I feel that it will be a great year.

S. Simon Jacob 57:24

Ten years after.

Yair Teboulle 57:29

The acid is amazing.

Pierre Miodownik 57:30

Yeah, like 14 years after Sure.

Yair Teboulle 57:34

Usually we serve the 21 Lator In the regular tastings. We serve it with that bite, with that dish. It's a brochette with grilled eggplant paste and grilled cheese on top. It's like a smoky dish For us, the Zlatour. Usually it's a bit of smoky wine. Wow, yeah, it's a nice bite. Who?

S. Simon Jacob 58:08

came up with these.

Yair Teboulle 58:11

We're working with a chef. His name is Yannif Gourier. He's an amazing chef and we build up like a wine pairing session For the general customers. You do not have to order it in advance or anything. We paired each wine from the general wines that we do in the Taincine we paired. For each wine, we paired a nice bite or a dish. Some of them are pretty simple, some of them are a bit more sophisticated, but the idea is to bring out the story of wines to the general public and that bite was supposed to explain what we talk about. When we talk about barrels and smoky flavors and smoky flavors. We're trying to explain that with that dish. Wow, yeah, this one is great.

S. Simon Jacob 59:22

The Zlatour Really nice.

Pierre Miodownik 59:31

And he's going to buy a big one this year, the 23, we're going to buy. It's not exactly a white port, it's more. It's more, Really.

S. Simon Jacob 59:47

Wow, yeah, now we've got me curious.

Yair Teboulle 59:51

We have a few things under our sleeves and for this vintage beer he's going to produce. Well, it's not a white port, it's a VDN fortified wine. You know what's VDN? Yes, Vendona Duval, which is like a Provence style fortified wine.

S. Simon Jacob 1:00:13

How do you fortify it? How do you fortify?

Yair Teboulle 1:00:16

it we add in alcohol. Alcohol is the same alcohol we use there by port. But it's not exactly the same mangrove and Pierre is working on the formula, the exact formula of, hopefully, vermouth that we're going to produce, wow, yeah, one or two styles vermouth wine. Of course, in two weeks or so we're going to the rosé is coming.

S. Simon Jacob 1:00:46

The rosé is going to be out.

Yair Teboulle 1:00:50

And another new little white, an oak little white. Most of it is rossin and a bit of shenan.

S. Simon Jacob 1:01:06

Pierre, thank you for being on the Koshu Ceo.

Pierre Miodownik 1:01:10

Thank you. Thank you, are you kidding?

S. Simon Jacob 1:01:12

It's a pleasure. It's really a pleasure. It's really a pleasure.

Yair Teboulle 1:01:15

It's crazy Thank you for coming yeah.

S. Simon Jacob 1:01:27

This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Koshu Ceo. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldier's safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages and, whenever possible, buy and share Israeli wine. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Koshu Ceo. It was exciting and informative for me as well. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Koshu Ceo, please check out our many past episodes.