S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to the Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. There are rare opportunities I get to interview truly special guests. Chef Avner Guzman provided me with one of those moments. A Kosher Chef who throughout his life has strived to raise the bar and dream beyond his current accomplishments, focusing on creating a future he already can envision and taste. Born in a small seaside town of Barcelona in eastern Venezuela, chef Gozman got his start in food preparation in his family's own restaurant, but soon traveled to England to work interning in various kitchens, always observing and learning from their diverse staff. He finally decided that if he was going to truly pursue the food industry, he needed an education. So he asked what is the best cooking school in London? The clear response was Cordon Bleu. So he went in person to enroll. While there he saw that they had many locations in the world and he asked what was their best location where he could receive the best education? They responded their Paris location. So he asked for his money back and traveled to Paris to enroll. Just to point out, Chef Avner at that time spoke Spanish, some broken English, but absolutely no French. Through his strong will, work ethic, incredible determination, he enrolled and completed his Cordon Bleu training.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:01

The following is a conversation with my friend, Chef Avner Nurewin Guzman. If you're driving, please continue while listening to Focus on the Road. If you're home, relax and grab a glass of wonderful kosher wine and enjoy. Welcome to the kosher terroir. I'm here with a good friend, a guest, chef Avner Guzman. Wonderful to have you in Jerusalem. It's really wonderful to have you in Jerusalem.

Chef Avner Guzman: 2:34

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, it's always wonderful to be in Jerusalem, especially at this time of the year, sukkot, and thank you for the invitation.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:44

Pleasure, really a pleasure. And also Avner brought along a friend, Shaye Stern, so it's a pleasure to have you here in the studio with me.

Shaye Stern: 2:55

Thank you for having me as well Excited to be here.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:57

The plan was to be in the Sukkot, which we can try to go up to in a few minutes, but it was drizzling a little bit in the Sukkot so I thought it would probably be better to be in the studio with us. Actually, we should taste this first. This is quite a special wine. It was made by Yakovoria and a group of us who participated in it called SOB Special Oriya Blend. Before people start thinking of other notes Meaning Other meanings, this is the 2018, which happens to be a lovely blend. So let's just take a shot at it. Let's try it.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:54

It's a really lovely wine. It's a good red wine that we could really use some meat with something more solid, but it's fun to taste it.

Shaye Stern: 4:07

Avner. What would you pair with this wine?

Chef Avner Guzman: 4:09

My brain is starting to work Good, but I need like I'll give you a few minutes.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:14

Yes, give you a few more, like two or three more sips, mm-hmm. Okay, take your time.

Chef Avner Guzman: 4:20

So far, it's excellent.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:23

So you brought up a question, shaya. You, yes, brought up a question downstairs and, as we were talking about wine, you asked a question about it. So I said, hey, let's get on the podcast and let's talk about it, because I think this is a question that a lot of people have. So what was the question?

Shaye Stern: 4:40

again, you were mentioning two Yakovoria orange wines that you had made and I wanted to know the difference between a natural wine and an orange wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:51

Okay, and an actual wine, or it's another term that they use for natural wines biodynamic wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:02

So biodynamic wine is a wine that's made starting in the vineyard using natural insect repellents rather than chemical insecticides, as well as natural products within the process, like natural yeasts. Okay, in a biodynamic wine, they actually harvest at a specific time, they put wine into fermentation tanks, they move it from fermentation tanks into barrels and they only disturb those barrels when there is no moon. And the reason why is because what they found is that the moon creates a gravitational pull, and that gravitational pull not only moves water in the ocean, but you can actually, if you do it properly and I'm not an expert on biodynamic wines, but if you do it properly, you don't even have to filter the wines because the sediment stays at the bottom of the barrels as you're pulling the wine off the top of it, as long as you do it at certain times. So the moon is part of it. Part of it is also that the actual process is sustainable. In some instances, they don't really like you to use pumps. In some instances they do use pumps. In some instances they use just gravity for wines. So there's a number of plays on that One of the kosher wines that is really focused on being biodynamic is LV Moses, moses Cohen and David Cohen.

S. Simon Jacob: 6:51

Actually, moses and David are the marketing people behind it. Moses's wife is the actual winemaker, who's really good, and they focus. All of their wines are biodynamic. But you also ask the difference between orange wines and biodynamic. Orange wines are totally different. Orange wines can be totally non-biodynamic.

S. Simon Jacob: 7:20

What gives a wine color, the difference between a red and a white wine? A lot of people feel that a red wine is made from red grapes and a white wine is made from white grapes. That is not true, not entirely true. A red wine is a wine that is left where it's squeezed and the juice is left with the skins. In that instance, that's what gives it the red color and it also gives it the tannins and everything else that's with it. A white wine is typically squeezed. Everything that isn't juice is thrown and they just take the juice and ferment the juice. In one instance they're fermenting it with all of the skins. The other instance they're fermenting it without all of the skins.

S. Simon Jacob: 8:15

When you're making red wine, one of the rules is that you've got to absolutely. Now you're seeing wines that are clusters, full cluster wines and things like that that are focused on making sure that the skins are all together with it and it's not processed without that. When you're making white wines and you have to throw the skins away, it's kind of almost like wait a minute, if I'm trying to get the best expression of these grapes, don't? I want to include the skins. But if I include the skins then all of a sudden I'm making a red wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 8:56

The difference is that if you leave it with exposure to the skins what we call skin-macerated wines then what happens is the wine will get a tinge of color, a golden or orange color in some instances, and the name that they noted for that was orange wines. Now, orange wines are different. Orange wines are very different than white wines. They taste a lot more like reds because of the tannins that are imparted, because of the skins and also because it's kind of a fuller, more robust flavor. But it's also a flavor that if you're an old-time wine drinker, you might not necessarily be able to deal with.

Shaye Stern: 9:55

Why is that?

S. Simon Jacob: 9:56

The best way it was explained to me by Yacovoria. Your brain creates boxes for different flavors. So I have a flavor that I've gotten from this wine and I know what a Grenache tastes like and what a Vignier tastes like and a Carignonne tastes like. All of a sudden, when you get a flavor like an orange wine, there isn't a box to put it into, you have no reference, there's no reference to it and because of that lack of reference you end up it's like a discord in your mind as to what you're tasting. So that's an interesting thing. But I'll be honest, as the food flavors have gotten more intense, as food's gotten more Mediterranean in style, as food has gotten more really taste-driven, even meats with fat are more intense, just regular wine for me doesn't cut it. Having an orange wine with a spicy fish or a spicy chicken wings or what have you is awesome, it's just crazy good and sometimes it's very difficult to pair, for example, chicken wings.

Chef Avner Guzman: 11:27

So difficult, so hard to pair with wine, with an orange wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:31

It's like heaven. It's like heaven. Sometimes people pair with chicken wings, beer, as an example, because it's got a lot of yeast in it, and what have you. That works pretty well, but orange wines with things like chicken wings or spicy Spanish food or what have you are just crazy. So because of that, I think because of the palate moving towards a food that's more tasty and more robust and more expressive in the palate, then I think orange wines have become more adopted because of that, and I could be wrong, but I think that.

Chef Avner Guzman: 12:14

Do you think that orange wine is going to be just a trend or they are here to stay longer?

S. Simon Jacob: 12:21

Is spicy food going to be a trend or is it here to stay longer? No, it's going to stay longer. If it's going to stay longer, then orange wines are going to stay longer too, because they're really built for each other.

Chef Avner Guzman: 12:33

And then you said that there is For people who are used to drink wine. It's like there's a new reference on your wine for orange wine. But what about the big, big, big, big community that is not yet into wine?

S. Simon Jacob: 12:51

Okay. So, as an example, you've got foods that are there for a much larger community. As an example, steaks and potatoes and what have you. I think that they meet the needs of kind of an older, more established community. That's their taste. As you're introducing new tastes, you're picking up new customers, new, younger people, All of the older ones like myself. I'm not a youngster, but I'm open enough to try and like things Some people can't accommodate that, accommodate to that, but on the ones that can, I believe that there it's an introduction to a whole new population of people.

S. Simon Jacob: 13:43

In fact, I think that was one of the reasons why a lot of younger people weren't picking up wines. They were If everything was a cab based or more low based. I want a cocktail. I want to try this. I want to try that. They want different flavors. They don't want the things that their parents drank, Though Scotch seems to hang in there for a lot of young people too.

S. Simon Jacob: 14:10

But that said, I think because of the food trend and this new kind of modern Mediterranean, South American, Asian fusion that's going on, I think that orange wines are definitely there, Even some of the Just the plain whites, being much more robust and fuller and more acid based. I think that there's a tremendous place for them. In fact, it even is much, much more than where the sweet wines. I categorize wines as three categories Red, white and blue. Blue is the Moscato bottles and red and white is like red and white wines. What I find is that people in different places with it I don't think spicy food lends itself to a Moscato, as an example, A sweet Moscato people aren't going to go there with that. That's why they want cocktails, or they want something with tomato juice or other things mixed in with the cocktail that will go with it.

Chef Avner Guzman: 15:31

I'm just wondering here. It's impressive 20 years ago. Today we're here in a conversation about culture wine because now we have a real industry. 20 years ago it was crazy to imagine that there were regular people like us speaking and having a discussion about wine. Now we are into a very, very specific niche of a new trend that maybe came to be longer. Honestly, that's what's been helping out For me. The evolution of wine is what's been helping people like me in the industry.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:27

I'll pick you with regard to food. That's an interesting play, and I think that's an interesting play on both sides. I think that what you're doing with food is helping the industry in wine in both directions.

Chef Avner Guzman: 16:45

For me. I see the wine like they're taking me at the hand and then bring me up, because when you try the complexity of the wine, when you try, when you met people that are enthusiastic and then very, very, very into this role, I have no option that, going in the same direction, we switch from drinking very sweet wine like 20, 25 years ago and then we are having today all kinds of great wine from all around the world. Every place where they are producing good wine, there is culture wine. It's been very beneficial for me, for restaurants and for chefs around the world having just people like you.

S. Simon Jacob: 17:52

Let's talk a little bit about where you came from, because I brought you on and we started talking about wine right away and actually you're both foodies. You're both food driven people. Talk to me a little bit about where did you start from. How did you start? Where did you start?

Chef Avner Guzman: 18:16

I started in a professional way, working in England and no culture place. So you were born in England. No, no, no, no, I was born in Venezuela. My mother language is Spanish. Were in Caracas. No, I grew up in a small city called Barcelona.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:39

I know on the East Coast.

Chef Avner Guzman: 18:42

I was very creative for the guy who came from Spain. He came from Barcelona. He then said okay, there is a beach. We're going to call this place Barcelona, nueva Barcelona. So, yes, I was born in Barcelona.

Chef Avner Guzman: 18:58

When I was a kid, my father had a restaurant just in front of the Caribbean Sea, so part of my childhood was watching this kind of entropy around me, cooking and serving people and helping people. So I was not a stranger. I wasn't foreign to this idea of choosing this path. I moved to England trying to learn English. So if you have any complaint about my English today, go to talk to the British people. And then, from then, I started to cook, to be like in professional way in England. And then I decided I have to go. I have, I embraced cooking like was natural, was like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And I remember when I make the decision and still today is the one of the best thing that's happened to me. So I have the same passion, I have the same strain and I enjoy, like the first time, cooking. So cooking is not work, it's not a job, it's life. I went to culinary school.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:34

You went to like a minor culinary school like nobody knows about.

Chef Avner Guzman: 20:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a tiny school that has more than 130 years old. Yes, it's called.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:47

Corkman Blue yeah Only the best food school in the world. I don't know how you. How did you end up picking that you? Just you were in England and you said let's go.

Chef Avner Guzman: 21:01

I was in England, I said to myself, listen, I believe in education, I think education is the best investment that you can do on yourself. So I said I don't want to go to a place with all the respect that every single school have, I just. But I wanted for me only the best. So I enrolled myself in. I found that Corkman Blue was the best school in England. And then I said, okay, among all the Corkman Blues that you have in the world, which one is the best? So in London they said me Paris. I said, okay, can you give me back my money? And right now, so same day, I contact Corkman Blue, paris and I organize take me like three months to organize everything. I moved to Paris. I moved to France only to go to this culinary school and was one of the best experience of my life.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:10

So you were speaking what language?

Chef Avner Guzman: 22:13

No, when I arrived to France, not French at all.

S. Simon Jacob: 22:18

So you were speaking in Spanish, spanish.

Chef Avner Guzman: 22:22

And Mal English, mal English, bad English, okay or broken English, and no French. But a lot, a lot of determination.

Chef Avner Guzman: 22:34

Must have been yes, and then I made it. So I went to culinary school. I succeeded, finishing like not among the best ones, but and then I get a job in a. I get an stash and I don't. I don't like to talk about this because that does have to be a subject for another podcast. Michelin Star restaurants Okay, everyone, if you peel a potato in a mission these people have to learn this, please in the Jewish community doesn't mean if I open oysters in a Michelin Star restaurant doesn't mean that you are a Michelin Star chef. I've been a lot of publicity all around these Michelin. That doesn't exist. Michelin Star belongs to the place and then it's another world. We are really really far away from that. Maybe one day, maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20 years.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:32

There is, I'm told there's a kosher restaurant in Barcelona.

Chef Avner Guzman: 23:35

Certa, it might pronounce in their own Okay, that's different, because it's a restaurant that is no kosher and have a kosher facility, yeah, and then the no kosher restaurant has one or two. One mission is that? I think it's one mission.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:51

So put it there you can, would you like?

Chef Avner Guzman: 23:54

some, of course. So we cannot say that the kosher spot has one mission to start. They are prepped just in my. Let's imagine that I hire, like Pierre Gagné, and then I bring him to Jerusalem and then he's gonna cook special meal I don't know for an, and I could like charity event, right, so we can say that this pierre gagne that he has I don't know, you have to be like 30 mission star because I have multiple restaurant all around the world, but that doesn't mean that the place where he came to cook because he's, so if he came to my house, I'm not.

S. Simon Jacob: 24:40

I don't become a mission star restaurant.

Chef Avner Guzman: 24:41

No, no, you don't became a mission as a restaurant. So so that's, but that doesn't mean that that we we have been improving the level of cooking, as I said in the last 20 years, we 20 years before not.

Chef Avner Guzman: 25:00

There's not single Fellows, you who wanted to became chef. There were people who wanted to be in doctors, loyals. Now people are allowing themselves to dream to became a chef because there is certain respect now to the, to the, to the profession, to the career of being a chef. Why we ended talking about mission star. Talking about mission star Well, no.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:27

So what I was going to say was you went for a stash for internship.

Chef Avner Guzman: 25:34

Lasmos. No, no, no, before those most that is not there because I don't like to talk about it. Okay, was Not. Was a really, really hard Experience. So was a three-minute summer stars. I didn't end like a long time Was very, very, very, very tough. The only thing that you can learn there is that you're able to when you think that you have limits. The limit that you have in your mind is not true, so you can go further. That's the only good thing I get from there. But then Now, talking about good things, I went to Osmos. Osmos had the level of Minimum one mission start and was, until today, one of the best experience of my life. I met there. The chef is Johnny's, other a Friend became a friend.

S. Simon Jacob: 26:37

He's only. He's only like, ten years older than you, not even ten years older than you, I don't think. Maybe ten years.

Chef Avner Guzman: 26:44

He's very talent, right, very this kind of genius he's been, he. He became a little bit famous or famous. He went to to cooking shows he. He has been writing like two or three books. He has has to be have to have, like you know, five restaurants in Paris. Yeah all successful. No, kosher, I don't know if we're allowed to say that.

S. Simon Jacob: 27:16

You could say it. What does it mean? Kosher friend is like kosher ingredients without a shkacha.

Chef Avner Guzman: 27:22

Yeah but it doesn't mean it's totally kosher. Yeah, yes, Okay, yeah, it's two good conscience.

Shaye Stern: 27:31

And Osmos was.

Chef Avner Guzman: 27:33

Osmos was totally fully kosher. Yeah, that's most was a totally Kosher, only kosher. So we had, like we can remember, like just imagine doing foie gras on Three or five textures different. Like foie gras can really ice cream, foie gras, grill foie gras was like crazy. He is, he is, and still today I inspire myself from, from his ideas. You know these like a for me is a reference.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:03

Wow, very cool, very cool.

Chef Avner Guzman: 28:07

So yeah, and then I work in a lunch of restaurants there, like Kavod, latili, deli, son of then I was just consulting Bazaar Maestro. So I, these are all kosher restaurants, all kosher restaurants. So I, yeah, I went after after Kordu, after Osmos, I Well, I went fully kosher, so just kosher. So I needed any for Shabbat for, for you know.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:42

So Is there somebody who turned you on and the kosher in the kosher world? Is there a rabbi who turns you on, or I?

Chef Avner Guzman: 28:51

I have to say that my process was a little bit weird. I had personal situations who drove me close to religion. So I start to ask myself should they do this, this in order to? You know, you are looking for stuff, you are dreaming having stuff for asking, praying, and then I start to to ask the first time I went to a colel was like Mars for me, was like all the world was, and then I start to there's a guy who invited me Shabbat to his house, a call man, and then they are always raising money for the call. I said come, come, come, come Shabbat. And they said I want you to help the colel monthly. Are you able to? I said listen, yes, but I need to. I have to have something and right, or how you say in return, yeah, yeah.

Chef Avner Guzman: 29:53

It's okay, if you want. You came once per week and then you go to To assure with that rabbi I have a rabbi who is gonna fit with for you, perfect. I said, okay, tuesday morning I go to the colel. I go to the colel, the rabbi has big, big stuff on his finger. He cooked himself, cooking Big foodie. The rabbi is big foodie. And then he doesn't know that that. Then I asked him what's happened. I said I was cooking big rib. That. I said you know that what they do for what? My job? No, I'm a chef. He was so excited, so excited.

Chef Avner Guzman: 30:35

And then I remember clearly what we there was the first Pedeck of Mesila T'yisharim. Yes, yes. So that has he do. The show is, how about that? And that, that expression for me was like that sure, I remember forever. And then since that day I start to go every single Tuesday. What's happened? One month after I started to learn with this rabbi? The restaurant where I was working, it was a, a Leak water. Yeah, then the ceiling, the whole ceiling, fell down. Boom, they sent us home fully pay for one year. I was Totally free with the full payment and they had nothing to do. I said to go to the colel From the morning until the afternoon late, with this rabbi. He's anishim walevi. So Me Kora Beraha, my friend is my rabbi is Shadya knows him.

Shaye Stern: 31:36

I feel like only in Paris Do you find a foodie Roche colo, nowhere else.

Chef Avner Guzman: 31:41

Yeah, and then that changed my life.

S. Simon Jacob: 31:43

That's. That's what amazes me, because like to go to school in Paris for food, it's like the center of Food in the world. Um, you know I'm gonna get a lot of people are gonna complain about that statement, but it's true. I mean, it's like, really, that's the center of creative food.

Chef Avner Guzman: 32:06

Um, I think, is when you write down something To become a reference.

Shaye Stern: 32:13

Yeah.

Chef Avner Guzman: 32:14

In history we said that french people learn to cook from italians. When the medici move from italy to france, they bring a lot bunch of chef and cooks. So what we said is that french people start to learn French people. Actually, they pick up from maybe you're gonna have trouble after this. They pick up from the italians how to cook and they pick up from the russians how to serve. So if you see, just picture these Films where in the french banquet you have all the food serve. That was the french service. Everything in one spot is on the table. But the russian service was Courses, courses one, two, three. So they take this structure from russians.

Chef Avner Guzman: 33:10

So but guess what? The first who codified the right, the first who write down recipes, structure, etiquette, how to do the law of gastronomy, where the french? So, even if the ideas, just imagine we are talking about food or wine, and then I take all the information you are giving to me and tomorrow I'm gonna write down a book about orange wine, about the process of the difference between red wine and white wine, and then I'm gonna write this, this book, 10 years from today. People are gonna give credit to me, not to you, if, even if I get the information for you. No one, no one is gonna think about you. So the first that codifies something Is the thing that's write down something's gonna get all the so french, they were clever enough. That's that's why they they are a reference, but I have to say today that spain, in order of creativity. They are really, really, really, really good.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:22

Spanish, that's interesting, even more than the french.

Chef Avner Guzman: 34:28

For me, point of view of creativity yes, cool, oh cool. That's good to know. This is so. We were talking about cordon bleu. Cordon bleu I love. Cordon bleu Is the alma mater, but every year To cobit. Now I went to a place called bas culinary center Is in the bas country in spain, and have to be the equivalent of harbour for chef harvard. Yes, it's Crazy, crazy, crazy. What you learn there and the network you're, you're able to make there is Crazy, is crazy and then, are there any other kosher chefs who go there?

Chef Avner Guzman: 35:16

No, I don't know, I don't think so. Not a single one that has this dry of curiosity. Cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 35:23

Very cool, very interesting. So you also. You also cook for different families. That's one of the things that you do. You go around the world cooking for families.

Chef Avner Guzman: 35:38

Yes, if the definition of around the world in the jibwee's world is Jerusalem, paris, new York, the caribbean, yes, hong.

S. Simon Jacob: 35:48

Kong not yet.

Chef Avner Guzman: 35:50

Okay, not yet. Yes, I have mainly today I have two activities. It's like I Own a restaurant in paris called etnican.

Chef Avner Guzman: 36:08

That is a kosher restaurant that is very, very, very interesting concept. And I have as well, you see as well a Company called kosher experience, and with kosher experience I travel the world Doing private kosher events for small families or for like Vacations everywhere. So last Summer I went to Portofino with the family and to San Jacca Ferran. Beautiful experience, not easy, that beautiful experience. So now, thanks to all this Desire of people to experience good food with good wine, so I'm able to, because it's not just making a mistake and just throwing some potatoes in the oven, it's just With all this knowledge, information, experience that I've been gathering all around, so we're able to Give people the opportunity to experience.

S. Simon Jacob: 37:24

So, and the wine is helping me out- so let me ask you a question what sort of experimentation do you do with these families I don't like. What sort of things can you do that that are new and different, and what have you?

Chef Avner Guzman: 37:40

The job of private chef has Two parts. The first part is your cooking and the second part you're a therapist. You have to understand the psychology of people In order to give them what they want, know what they say, the one, what they. You have to read the, the, the thinking that behaves, the, the way how they act then, because sometimes they say I don't like this, but saying I don't like these ingredients is they are saying to you.

Chef Avner Guzman: 38:21

I had a very bad experience With that experience with this flavor with it, a ranch of flavor, and then I don't want to have it again. But what if you take the same ingredient and then you don't force them, you convince them. Listen, you know where to find the food you like it. Yes, I promise you, you don't like it. They're gonna break everything all day, what you like. Just please give to this ingredient a new opportunity so to try to erase this bad souvenir that you had with this. And then happens, like in 80% or 90% of cases, people became close. Maybe they're not became the best fan of this, the bigger fan of this product, but they're gonna try to enjoy and to eat the best of little delirium.

Chef Avner Guzman: 39:28

Give me an example what's an example of that? Okay, someone who said I hate raw fish. I tried raw fish, I want to, I hate, I cannot say it. And that's happened. You know, that's that's one. Especially for American people, they cannot stand the smell of fish. And then you go, you say some words and then you use some techniques, of course, to improve or to change. You have to know what's happened. Okay, and then people go try it and they said, okay, maybe I'm gonna give a second option. There is something bit I had.

Chef Avner Guzman: 40:17

A client said beetroot give me headache. He said why, when he was a child there aunt forced him to drink a beet juice because he was sick. He was, I don't know, anemia, something like this. But this souvenir of being forced to do something put him away from this. So an agent manner. So you go make like a capachio. Beet needs acidity, beet needs texture. Like just imagine a nice capachio, but don't boil your, your your beetroot, just roast in the oven. When it's done, you're gonna keep all the flavor. You make a nice capachio, then a nice drop of acidity, let's say some press of lemon, and then a very, very tiny touch of honey, a drizzle some lemon zest and some nuts any nuts that you like. That is enough, because you're gonna have all the ranch jackoff said you have, we have boxes on the line and those boxes that you have the reference of the flavor are linked to an experience.

Chef Avner Guzman: 41:38

If the, the ranch of the flavor, the box of beet, is linked to a trauma, for sure you're not going to want to try. So I don't want to say when people came to me because sounds like a therapist, but when I try to give people one experience is it's not just cooking, it's not just cooking, it's trying to get into the human being. So the definition of a souvenir you have I repeat this all the time you need two things you need information, knowledge and emotion. How many times you were sitting down the university and people were saying worse, worse, worse, and nothing happened there and then you don't remember. But when you just imagine the same teacher is giving you information and then something happened, an explosion or something dropped someone, some dropped something, and then you're gonna remember they, you're gonna make a link between what's happened and the information you have and then you're gonna build up a souvenir. So cooking is about that.

Chef Avner Guzman: 42:47

Cooking is two days ago, but the place where I'm cooking here in Jerusalem, at the end of the dinner everyone started to speak about childhood. Why? Because I came out and that's part of the experience. I don't want to say show, but experience. I came out with a shanty bomb and they start to serve people on their dishes. It's nothing, it's literally nothing, it's not three missionaries experience. But then I said I remember when I was a kid I came into the, the, I opened and then I take the shanty, I put on my mouth and then the Balabite said can you please put some shanty and me give me shanty? So this kind, tell me what that is again shanty whipped cream whipped cream.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:36

Okay, thank you Shaya.

Shaye Stern: 43:41

You're welcome.

Chef Avner Guzman: 43:42

No, no problem, Shantigui whipped cream. Whipped cream. Sorry, I was.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:46

No, no, you were allowed.

Chef Avner Guzman: 43:47

I thought that Shantigui was universal.

S. Simon Jacob: 43:49

No, it's not. That's okay, but I've cleared up, that's all. So now I understand what you're saying, because I can see that Very clearly.

Chef Avner Guzman: 44:00

So as cooking food, wine goes deep into the spirit of people so that's what we do is so important. I mean, I don't know if it's so important, but for me it's very important.

S. Simon Jacob: 44:21

Okay, so I have a question for you. I know you've worked with a lot of different wineries and wine people and what have you. Is there somebody in particular that you've worked with over the years? That's been just really amazing to deal with Any winemakers that you've spoken to. If you haven't, then I've got to introduce you to a bunch of people.

Chef Avner Guzman: 44:45

I've been dealing with Basically in Paris. I have to give names because they're going to be mad at me if I don't say names, no, say good names.

Chef Avner Guzman: 44:59

I don't have a problem with that. So of course I don't call myself an expert in wine, because it's not true, but I love wine. You know, if you see, what I mean. I drink wine almost every day and I just drink your wine. I tell you I need more time to come with an idea. I don't want to come with the same idea that everyone comes. So your wine, the SOB.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:35

Which year this is 2018.

Chef Avner Guzman: 45:38

So it's very specific. I was thinking about something made with Marabonde. I mean not just Marabonde, Marabonde in two or three different textures.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:50

How so? How do you get Marabonde in two or three different textures?

Chef Avner Guzman: 45:53

Okay, that's another different podcast. Okay, so I'm going to answer after, but just to keep track of the question you just asked is, first of all, I have my very good friend. I'm not saying about wines and talking about people. He's a French guy. He's an amazing human being. Sweet guy, don't believe what I'm saying. I've been close to Ellie for a long time.

S. Simon Jacob: 46:40

It's on my bucket list of places that I really want to go with my wife and spend at least a night there and have him cook and also drink the wine, and I'm so looking forward to doing that, but I have yet to do it the whole experience.

Chef Avner Guzman: 47:00

Each time I'm after one big event, like after Pesach, I was so, so, so, so tired. I said to my wife listen, let's go for a Shabbat a weekend to Ellie I know when I drink good wine and eat well and then relax. So Ellie has been a friend for a long time and then I know his commitment to good things he's. You know there is a sound that says he is a dreamer. He is a dreamer, but in a good way. I mean he imagines something and then he makes it happen. So I have such a respect and admiration for this guy. I know other people who make wine, who produce wine, of course my good friend Ralph Madep. Just saying, ralph Madep, do you know what this is all about?

S. Simon Jacob: 48:11

He's such a special person, crazy, crazy, incredible person. I love him. We have a mutual love relationship. I'm Svarti, he's Svaradi, ghumkin and also he's Svaradi as well, but he calls me Zedhi and that name has stuck. And I'm Svaradi. All my grandkids call me Saba. Everybody you know I am as far from as Zedhi as possible, but he calls me Zedhi. Everybody calls me Zedhi now, but I love him. He's the best.

Chef Avner Guzman: 48:48

Ralph, he is very he's a goodness shama and related to wine. He understands what is. He's serving wine. That's why we have. Yeah, I'm sorry, I noticed an empty glass. Don't be sorry for that.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:08

I noticed an empty glass so I said I'm the guy you know.

Chef Avner Guzman: 49:11

So I'm pouring for him. Ralph, I have to say the only thing, doctor I love you. If you're going to listen to this someday for sure you're going to listen to this Probably I love you.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:23

I did a podcast with him. I know I did a podcast and it was one of the number one podcasts that I've done. You know, of all the people, he got more followers than anybody else.

Chef Avner Guzman: 49:39

He has such a strong drive. He wants to do things in the right way. That's it. I met David Cohen.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:55

David from LV.

Chef Avner Guzman: 49:57

I met LV wines one time at the Kosher Wine Festival. We spent an amazing, amazing time at the restaurant. He came, david, and I am a big, big, big fan of their wines. By the way he is, you know he's one of the fully Kosher wineries?

S. Simon Jacob: 50:22

Yeah, he's not just part.

Chef Avner Guzman: 50:25

Yeah, this is Jacob from Yatir. Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:30

I have. I just had a podcast with him, two podcasts ago with Jacob and Eti, but Jacob from Yatir is also incredible.

Chef Avner Guzman: 50:42

They are like an amazing, amazing, amazing people Team. Yes, yes, I really enjoyed, you know, when we came to wine. For me, there is not competition, there is not people. More or less than I've been working a lot with Minachin Izrailovic.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:11

We handles all the French wines for Royal.

Chef Avner Guzman: 51:13

Yes, very good friends. So that's give me access to To like a privileged position related to wine, even if I'm not a wine expert. So so I'm missing someone.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:32

But what's really cool with that is that I, you know, when I initially started to talk about doing some restaurants or some chefs, people were like you know, but your podcasts about wine? And people don't realize that the connection there's such an incredible connection between restaurants and wine, especially now in kosher and the kosher world. They don't realize that most of the kosher wines that are sold in Israel are sold via restaurants. The restaurants in Tel Aviv even non-kosher restaurants, you know gravitate to some of these exceptional kosher winemakers because they're looking for good wine, they're looking for special wines.

Chef Avner Guzman: 52:24

So it's it's Every, every single winemaker, I think, someone who has the ability to change grapes into wine. You have to have respect for those people. It's like it's not it's not by chance that the Torah tradition links Kedushah, or blessing the name of God, with with wine. So there is something beyond, more mysterious than only physical and chemical reactions, have to have something. So people who are able to to transform grape juice into this elixir have to be special people. I remember we I had a small winery called Betel. I think it was a carnation wine that they make it really, really good. They make it like. What I do often is sometimes at the restaurant, I prepare a tasting menu with different gears of the wine people are making. We were talking about going to a winery. If you have any, any, any suggestions.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:47

I do.

Chef Avner Guzman: 53:49

So, and Shaya asked me what's the point to go to a winery to try wine?

Shaye Stern: 53:55

Well, once you've already been to as many as you've been you know, wine is special.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:02

Nothing's ever the same, and if you've got a creative wine maker, a lot of the wine makers are doing things that are different, if you've noticed. I'll give you a couple of examples. In Castel, they've created a brand called Ruziel. Okay, in Flam, they've created they didn't create a separate brand, but they did create a very specific bottle called white label. Okay, if you go to Yatir with Yako from Yatir, they created a brand called Darum Darum. In each of those instances they've created something where the winemakers can play, they can have fun, they can be creative, they can do things that are different and new, because After a while, wine makers get tired and they want to experiment.

S. Simon Jacob: 55:02

You don't want to alienate your whole base of wine drinkers. Like, take a wine that you do and that a lot of people love and all of a sudden change it. So what they're looking for is something else, some area outside to be able to play. And Raziel is the place where Castel plays. Raziel is really. It's a Mediterranean blend rather than a Bordeaux blend wine. The same thing happened in Flam with their white label. It's Mediterranean blend rather than a Bordeaux, french Bordeaux blend it's. You know, they're doing things that are different.

S. Simon Jacob: 55:50

With the aquavoria he is making some crazy whites that are really different. His latest one has 12, he's taken grapes from a single vineyard and he's fermented them 12 different ways and then he's taken those 12 and blended them together into a single wine. So it's like literally nuts. To be quite honest, it's crazy, but he's gotten. It's so expressive that it gives you he calls it Yaakov's Playground and there's some new branded ones that are coming out. I don't know if they're introduced yet, so I don't want to tell you what they are, but there's some new ones that are go along those same themes, where it's just these are whites that almost taste like white burgundies, which are crazy rich wines, and they're coming out of.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:00

Israel and they're just an enormous amount of effort, but they're just beautiful wines, so it's an interesting thing to see.

Chef Avner Guzman: 57:11

You are saying all this stuff and I just picture myself in this situation. Sometimes you have like, yes, this commercial spot of you have to sell only this menu because people want to go easy, just this. But then just imagine I have another restaurant where when you come here you say nothing, I take care of everything. You let me know if you have any allergies, any preference, but car to lunch, it's like I take care of everything, so and that's so, so, so how I can say the satisfaction of having this opportunity to express yourself, because certainly these activities are manual activities, you have a lot of work, but has this part of artistic expression like you need to express yourself, and cooking, making wine, is part of this. So let's say, we don't know when you make an weird association. I was once at dinner and I had the hot spa of serving tomatoes and watermelon, and between us this is weird, really weird, and I don't know if it was good or not, but until today people are still talking about this.

Shaye Stern: 58:53

It was good I was there.

Chef Avner Guzman: 58:58

As a dessert. So just imagine having a dessert tomatoes and watermelon.

S. Simon Jacob: 59:03

As long as you salted it. I could see how that would be crazy good.

Chef Avner Guzman: 59:09

I could see how that was good and I'm still, I'm still stick into this idea of having building something from this, yes, from this base. So you need because cooking and now wine is like there's no limit, literally no limit If you have a good pool of techniques. You have to have techniques. It's not like I want to become wine maker tomorrow and then I put some, I mix stuff and that's it. No, you have to have techniques If you have a good pool of techniques.

S. Simon Jacob: 59:43

You have to build it over a period of time.

Chef Avner Guzman: 59:46

And you have a good list of ingredients and then you just connect that, this with this, this with this, let's try what's happened. Let's try what's happened. And then I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:04

Nothing's easy. I mean well, I can't say nothing, that there are some things, but the things that are worthwhile waiting for and experiencing are not easy.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:00:14

They're not easy.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:17

Do you have a favorite wine?

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:00:22

Yes, I can say I have a bunch of. Lately I've been drinking Arrosse. This is from Nesson Mercier called Chateau Verloire. You just love it. It's not expensive, amazing wine. I have this. I'm very close with Benjamin, yuson and Ralph and Ed, so I love the Claude de Lune white. Yeah, puyifume and Sancère it's crazy Are the best.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:10

Yeah, so you like white, I like white.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:01:14

I like white wine. I love red. If I say Smith of Lafitte, I've had the big names, I know everyone likes it. Yes, I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of wine, but each wine has their own personality. It's like I cannot say who is your favorite person in the world. You have a bunch of five or ten friends that you love all of them so me, and the one in the same history. So this was what we get for the hug. What shall?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:49

you get, yeah, the silks. I was going to ask you whether it was a silks. That's really, that's awesome. What's your favorite pairing? I can't you know. Is there a pairing that you've done that you thought was just really awesome? Okay, I promise I'm almost out of questions.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:02:07

No, no, no, it's okay, I have to say you something, to tell you something. I love experimenting, yep, experimenting. Just imagine you finish a tire sending like I don't know, honder covers. You are completely like exhausted, but your brain is still working. And then your body is like go to sleep, but your brain is like no, you have to do something. You are wearing the best shape because all the adrenaline is in your body, and then your brain want to. And then I arrive home and then I start to make tests. You know my own Bunch of alcohols and bunch of spices Paprika, garlic, black pepper, lime, lemon, orange and then I try to try this with this, this with this, and, in the same spirit of tequila, I discover, I mean, for me I get not related to wine, I get, I don't know if you know the wrong diplomatical. I get diplomatical with black pepper. Black pepper is a thermogen. It's like heat. Your your unlime, so you have something that heat, really, really heat.

Shaye Stern: 1:03:42

And then what we call lemon or what you call lemon.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:03:46

Yes, why do you call lemon? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all the aromas, all the flavors of the diplomatical are going to became deeper because of the black pepper. Black pepper is not just to make like, oh, this spices hot.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:04:08

No, it's yes.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:04:09

Why we drink wine when you are eating, that we have to understand why Wine has alcohol and has flavor. So each time that you're eating you're very big steak that is fatty, with a very good sauce, and demi-glace who has a lot of flavor and a lot of fat, fat doesn't go with water, so the flavor of the sauce is going to stick in your mouth because of the fat, because of the oil. So the only way to clean up your palate is with something that dilutes, dilutes, dilutes. Yeah, the fat, fat.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:04:59

And that's why these acidic wines are perfect, alcohol and acidity Perfect. And then you clean up. You have a great bite of your steak I like it Deep in your sauce, and then you take a drop of your wine good wine, and your wine is going to bring more information, but at the same time it's going to clean up your palate and then you are going to be ready to rediscover your meat. So the same meat is going to be just increasing on flavor, on textures, on experience. So all these associations this is not because it's fancy with drinking wine, with food, it's because the whole Ica, the whole Inean is to rediscover.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:05:46

You go back and forward, you rediscover your food and then you rediscover your wine and then your brain is like tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak tak. I use always tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak. On cuisine, we use a lot of monotherms. I don't know how you say that. So the perinite discover I say discover between the thermogenesis of the black pepper, the acidity of the lime or lemon and the flavor of the rum, was just crazy.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:06:30

Have you ever met Luis from Taco? Luis, it's my good friend, luis, he's also one of my best friends. Really, what a sadic.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:06:41

He is amazing and the food is amazing. First time, I'm not lying the first place we're going to eat each time I come to Israel Taco Luis, it's good. It's good, Especially the tongue, the tongue Taco.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:00

Luis is very good. He is.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:07:03

Yeah, mucha tequila.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:06

He's the one who taught me about tequila, especially about real tequila. So, very shy, what's your favorite one? Now I'm putting you on the spot. Do you have a favorite?

Shaye Stern: 1:07:20

You know, I was loving that, you know, since they're for the grapefruit, and now I'm finding out that that's a pretty basic take.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:27

It's not a basic take, Wait, wait. So Pulefume has also. It's got a smokiness to it, but it's also got citrusy takes on it. There's a number of wines that have that, but the reason I?

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:07:46

Because it's the easiest thing that you can identify.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:51

Right.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:07:52

So it's like it's like it's nothing to do with this.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:56

It's not no, it's not bad about the wine, but I'm telling you, in that experience I remember tasting this wine and it was low quats and crazy oriental stuff and I went, oh how can they put that in a wine? I mean, like how could they create all of those memories and thoughts in my brain by just sipping this wine? It's like crazy. That's one of the things that food and wine both do. You taste them and all of a sudden, if you might remember where you tasted food like this the last time and it could be half a world away. So it's like it brings back it's incredible smells and tastes. Just kick your brain into such a Make you travel through time.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:08:55

Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:08:55

You know totally Much more than words could ever do. Even sounds could do. Those sounds work pretty well too. But, yeah, certainly, even much more than your eyes.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:09:08

So, wine, wine, touch those boxes that Jagdavu Uriya what's?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:09:13

talking about? Yes, thank you, thank you. I didn't. You know I've taken a huge amount of your time, but I I thank you very much for being on the Kosher Terwa and I look forward to another episode.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:09:27

Okay, I really look forward. We really enjoy the company, the wine, the ambience, Pleasure real pleasure Shalom u'brachah.

Shaye Stern: 1:09:37

Will you do a recap episode of your food tasting, your wine and food pairing?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:09:44

I would love to, but why not? That's a great idea to do it there.

Chef Avner Guzman: 1:09:47

And listen, we're still. Sukkot is just beginning. Yes, we still have time to get some fun cooking and drinking.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:09:55

That's true. That's true Even today, even today. So I look forward. Okay, thank you. Thank you. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Kosher Terwa. It was exciting and educational for me too. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Terwa, please check out our many past episodes. Again, thank you for listening to the Kosher Terwa.