Exploring the Elegance of Israeli Wines: A Journey with Yisrael Flam and the Flam Winery

S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to the Coucher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. The following is a conversation with one of the icons of the Israeli wine industry, the winemaker Yisrael Flam. Yisrael started his career in the 1960s, working his way up to eventually being the chief winemaker for caramel wineries. He initially studied winemaking in South Africa, Australia and in California at UC Davis, coming back to Israel in the 70s as one of the very first Israeli winemakers university-educated in Viniculture and Oenology.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:05

Yisrael is also the father of Golan and Gilad Flam who with their mother and sister, started the very successful Boutique Flambe winery in Esto'ol, Israel, where we actually met for our conversation. We discussed some of Yisrael's past but honestly, he was much more excited to discuss his children's winery and to taste some of their delightfully elegant wines together. Halfway through the discussion we were surprised to be joined by Gilad Flam, the CEO of Flam wineries. He continued to participate in our tasting and a discussion about the winery's exciting new future developments. If you're commuting in your car, please sit back, give your attention to the road, but listen in and enjoy. If you're home, please choose a delicious kosher Israeli wine, Sit back and listen in to a truly interesting conversation with this senior of the Israeli wine industry, Yisrael. You'd like to be called Yisrael or Israel With Eber? Okay, Yisrael. I'm Simon Jacob and welcome to the kosher terroir. So for coming to Flam winery, it's a pleasure. You're most welcome, Really a pleasure. It's a pleasure to be here and you're one of the earliest influencers.

Yisroel Flam: 2:27

Actually what I want to tell you? That all my everyday life I'm actually involved, or used to be involved, in the wine making, since my early 20s, which happened to be in the mid-60s of the previous century. I must say, right, you know, no wine making background at all, no family, nothing but a miracle. I'd say, let me work as a press student in an Israel wine institute, and that made me love very much with all the wine industry. In order to do that, I went to study wine making in the South Africa. From there I went to the University of California and in the early 70s I came back to Israel, went to work for Carmel winery, which at that time used to be a monopoly. I'd say, yeah, I was a 70% market share. I started as a young wine maker, became a senior wine maker In the early 70s. I used to be, or I was, the chief wine maker for the show the Tior Wiley, which just exists anymore, unfortunately, and the last 15 years I worked at Carmel as the chief wine maker of the company.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:51

The first Israeli wine I drank that was unbelievable to me was a 1976 Cab Cabernet.

Yisroel Flam: 4:03

The.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:03

Maristavid, york. Yeah, and I drank it and it was like, okay, this is what wine is supposed to taste like. And later, about almost 30 years later, 25 years later, I actually opened a bottle with Jay Booksbaum from Royal and we thought what's it going to taste like? It was delicious, it was gorgeous, it was amazing and Jay will back me up on it.

Yisroel Flam: 4:37

So I'm telling you, he always mentions it's the 76 wines that tasted the probability of place? Yes.

S. Simon Jacob: 4:44

It was outstanding, absolutely outstanding.

Yisroel Flam: 4:46

What I want to tell you about that wine? Israel, as it was never recognized or never known as a quality wine producer country, because majority of people didn't know anything about wine due to the background, people that came back from Eastern Europe to Israel drank wine or vodka and cognac for the kidoshishabbi and the 76 wine was a wine that in the mid-70s something started to change in Israel.

Yisroel Flam: 5:28

More people started to look for wine and at that point the quality of the grapes to make quality wine was not appreciated in Israel at all. I mean by the wine Volumes, volumes and volumes. You know to make the wine in its volumes. And we at a certain point identified a vineyard that is grown on bushes if you know what I mean, you know low yield, and we realized that from that kind of vineyard can make something outstanding. And that was the result.

S. Simon Jacob: 6:11

Amazing, amazing. Do you have any early stories of Carmel? Because it's funny. I was talking to Adam Montefiore and he was saying that you know, this issue of kashrut within wineries is like from the 80s. Before that, there was no issue of Shomer Shabbat or not Shomer Shabbat. There was an issue of are you Jewish, are you Jewish and are you an idol worshiper? And if you're a Jew and you're not an idol worshiper, there was no issue with you being able to make wine.

Yisroel Flam: 6:48

I can tell you many stories about it. When I joined Carmel in the early 70s it was according to you just mentioned now you know I was allowed to go. I'm not a Shomer Shabbat, but I would never go in front of the synagogue or in front of the wine with my car on Shabbat or do something in Fahessia, and the Rabbi never asked me questions about you know, what do you do in Shabbat, how do you do in Shabbat? And I was going around the winery. I could go by myself. I could actually sample wine from the tanks, you know, by opening the tap, sampling and seeing you know its quality or whatever it was needed and I don't know to say anything. But I think since 80s it became more and more and more and more difficult. They started, you know, the reverence started to close the gates of the wineries and not letting no Shomer Shabbat in and this would brought to the situation nowadays.

Yisroel Flam: 8:02

But I can tell you that we at Flam wine's are kosher winery by 100%. We are. We are the American OK is watching us and supervising our cashoot, but we developed and I would always tell people who want to go into cashoot and are afraid when the team and all this kind of thing, I'd say you take it or leave it. If you're going to do it with the full heart and do whatever is required for you, go ahead. If you want to do it by tricks, don't go into wasting your time.

Yisroel Flam: 8:47

And lucky enough, as the other thing is that, beside doing it with the full heart, we are actually having a staff of Shomer Shabbat people that work with us. First of all, we wanted to be not just coming into work and not thinking about what they do, but they have to be, and we are fortunate that there are people that love why we can rely on them, and we have developed a relation with them that we trust each other. This makes things so easy and so good to overcome. The story of winery is not my story, I'd say, but my family my eldest son Golan, his brother Gilad, his daughter Geffen and the mother Kamelea.

S. Simon Jacob: 9:40

Amazing. So before we start talking about flamm winery because we're sitting in flam wine we also are tasting some wines this morning or this afternoon and we're going to taste some wines. So can you tell me about the first wine we're tasting? It's a wine.

Yisroel Flam: 9:58

Okay, the first wine we're tasting is a flamm blank vintage 2022. This is a dry white wine. The principle variety is this wine is Sauvignon Blanc. Sauvignon Blanc grown here in the Judean Hills and the process is, you know, the grapes at ripening are being harvested. We harvest our grapes at night because you know temperature during the day is very, very hot. They're all hand harvested, delivered to the winery In here in beans of 300 kilos or 600, 700 pound beans. We put it into we have a cold container that is put in in order to keep the temperature and each bean is taken out from the container and being put through the process of the winemaking.

Yisroel Flam: 11:07

The idea of this wine, in order to make it fresh, fruity, flowery and delicate, is to what we call whole cluster pressing. We do not crush and separate the berries from the stems, but we press it a whole cluster. What's behind it is that if you crush it, you break it and you separate from the stems and it goes through the crusher. Then the beetles of the crusher heat to some extent the stems and the stems, which are green, and the tannic transfer it to the wine. So to make a very direct wine, the whole cluster goes into the press and it's very gently pressed. So the juice coming out is very delicate. At that point the mass is being transferred to a tank, a cold tank chilled down to a lot temperature, because you want to ferment the white wine at a low temperature in order to retain the aromas and the flavors and keep it.

Yisroel Flam: 12:29

At the east the required east Fermentation takes on. The fermentation is the process of transforming the natural grape sugars of the grapes, glucose and fructose, into alcohol and carbon dioxide and it goes through the atmosphere by the east, alcohol wise are all dry, which means that all the sugars in the grapes to begin with are being transformed to alcohol and no remaining sugar left in the wine and the alcohol content may be between 12.5 to 14.5. Depends on the initial sugar amount. To cut a long story short, to get a young wine when it clarifies itself, when the botanic time comes, we filter it, we bottle it and quite young re-releases for sale. The idea is, you know, young, fruity, flowery. This wine, for instance, is made from 90% grapes all the life until bottling in stainless steel tank, and 10% wine, just to get a twist to it, a wine that has fermented in oak bells.

Yisroel Flam: 13:47

So what we can do? We can take. We can look at the wine. We see its clarity, the nice color that tells us it's young wine. Then you know, we'll roll it and get the aroma, the fresh, the fruit, the flowery, and then I don't have to tell you how it tastes. But that's what I want to tell you, the people that are listening. The tasting is taken in the mouth. The tongue is our tester. It's got all the places where we get all the tasting, tasting buds, we call it. We have the taste buds and we sip it in with breathing in some air in order to accelerate the flavor, roll it around our tongue and you know, at home we spit air with one of it, but here, as we have the tasting, a few more wines, so we're going to spit it in the spit tube.

S. Simon Jacob: 14:47

It's a beautiful color of hay color. It's a beautiful color.

Yisroel Flam: 14:56

You get pleasant acidity. The wine is a bit of a large. It leaves you a nice crispy flavor of the tank. So we say all our senses take part in the wine of irrigation. We look at it with its clarity, with its color, we look at the tears. Then we smell it, we taste it and finally we twist so to get the music. We say lechaim. And now you are a member of the Good Lifestyle Club of Flam Winery Lechaim.

S. Simon Jacob: 15:35

It's really fresh and beautiful.

Yisroel Flam: 15:39

And the idea behind the wine exists is to drink it young, fresh, fruity, flowery, aromatic. Even though a wine like this can you know? Age for some time, but then you get it more with rancho. It changes a bit but still keeps its quality Very cool.

S. Simon Jacob: 16:04

Flam wines have always been in my mind, elegant wines. Your son Golan, who's the winemaker, just has a touch to get elegance out of the wines.

Yisroel Flam: 16:20

What I can tell you about, you know, next generation, the flum generation, is that they grew at the wine maker's home and wine was always part of our life. Golan, to his first university degree, studied as a faculty of agriculture in Chovot, and you know general agriculture. And when he graduated from a degree he went to Europe and I sent him to see some wineries and at that point he said, ok, I also want to become a wine maker. So we arranged, or he looked for, and he went to study in Italy in the Chancellor University on a master program of wine making. It's a two-year program, graduated and after that spent a year with good friends of ours, the Wernold, wiley, tuscany, together with European way, Tuscany way, making quality wines. And from there he went to Australia, to Australia to see, you know, to call the new world, you know California, australia, chile, those countries, and there he left that way so he could come back home after four years. And then he came back in 1998, at that point in Gilad, our other son, gaffer, our daughter, and came back as a mother.

Yisroel Flam: 17:54

They decided to establish a winery in Israel, but not another wine factory, a winery with an aim to produce in Israel top international quality wines. You may recall, remember that during the 90s there was already a vibe of wineries, small wineries, making, establish and making, starting to make wines in another way more quality wine, more attention to the quality, and Flam was one of the beginners of that wave. Thanks God, we are now 25 years after that. We are now celebrating the 25th anniversary of the winery. At the beginning there were two barrels of wine, each barrel, 300 bottles, and now, thanks God, we are now. I could say that we are now in a state, a chateau. We are here located in a winery in Jerusalem, in the Dan Hill, in Eshta'ol. We own wine. We make wines only for vineyards that we own, them and I made by our way or by Golan's extraction. We don't buy any wine. We don't buy any wine from our sources.

Yisroel Flam: 19:15

And this is what we want to do. We don't want to become a giant. We want to stay all the time, as long as Gola can take care, really responsible for all what's going on. And Gola is a process of production in order to be 100% on control of what we produce Without permission. If you want, we can go to the second wine, let's try.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:44

This is one of my favorite wines, oh really, because it has such a long, lovely finish. It's just a wonderful wine. I've been drinking it since the first production, since the first year. So I've been drinking it for a number of years, and it's named after Camelia the photographer.

Yisroel Flam: 20:10

And you see, since 2004, Flam Winery was making one white wine made mainly from Sauvignon Blanc grapes in an idea to make a young, fresh, flowery wine that makes a text its way of production, until bottling only in stainless steel text. Okay, this idea I took as a fresh, as a fruit is the year 2018, or to war, 2018,. Gola said, okay, I want something more sophisticated, I want something like a good Champlain wine, that white wine made from chardonnay mainly and ferments, and all the processes of wine making takes place in a bell. I know, wow, and this is the result. You know, chardonnay is what mainly made from chardonnay grapes, a bit of Sauvignon Blanc, but all the process from the wine takes place in a bell. And the idea of all, the other way of making a wine from a wine stainless steel, a wine in a bell is that here, first of all, is a bell, and the bell has got its own characteristic. It's got some, you know, some smoky aroma, some smoky taste, so you want just a touch of it. It's not sealed like a stainless steel tank where only, I would say, no air coming in, only air going out means carbon dioxide.

Yisroel Flam: 22:03

Yeah, and here, what you have in the bell is what you call a micro-oxidization. Small oxygen molecules go into the bell and add, you know, fullness to the red wine or to the white wine takes place. Another step that was taken in this wine is you know as the wine during the fermentation releases. You know sediment, dead yeast, proteins and so on, and during the process of the fermentation you don't let it settle down at the bottom of the tank but you have every few days or hours or whatever the wine is inside, you keep mixing it and bringing it up and lifting it to the air and it gets, you know, what we call the battery test. So this is the result. It became very popular wine. People like it very much.

S. Simon Jacob: 23:02

I love it. I love it from the very beginning.

Yisroel Flam: 23:08

So, again, the color is more golden, yellowish, due to the process of the bell. Always, you know, very, very, very, very, very clear. The nose is very, very Just, lovely and as a palette you got more body, more structure. It fills your mouth. Is this what you say at Tova, U'Mativ on?

S. Simon Jacob: 23:47

I say that on all wines. But this is special because this is such a step up. It's got such beautiful structure and it just fills your mouth and it actually it hits every spot it needs to hit. As well as even now, after I've swallowed it, after I'm talking, I can still taste it, the finish is still going, the fullness of it. It's a lovely wine, absolutely lovely wine.

Yisroel Flam: 24:23

So the story behind it is 2018 was the harvest of the wines being made and when you see, we don't use names like this. But when they looked and saw how we will name the wine, so in 2019, when the wine was released, camellia turned 70. So they said you know, by Shushu, we won't tell her, we'll name the wine Camellia. And so Gephe and our daughter said you know, you are crazy, you don't tell mommy. And then we said when we do the inauguration on her birthday, she will be surprised with all the people. So Gephe said you know, are you crazy? She said don't you tell mommy before that? You know you're going to name the wine there. So she said you know what would she Am I Dead is that why they named it after me? so they decided a week before to tell her and she was very pleased, very happy about you know, the lady that was given such a beautiful wine. I love it. It's a great wine.

Yisroel Flam: 25:42

You know, the last from the series of the white rose wines will be our rose. You know, for many years I can recall that rose wine won't seem to be something, not for people that enjoy wine, but even though a rose is an ideal wine for a good summer day. It's perfect. And then in Israel, there was a change in perspective and rose wine came quite an issue. So 2019 was the first year that we also joined and started making a rose wine.

Yisroel Flam: 26:32

You know, rose wine, I call it the rose wine. It's a wine made from red grapes. It is a technology of white wine making. So this is all idea behind it. And if in the white wine we expect to get the aromas that are typical to or associated with white wine, you know we say maybe some in your blood, grape fruit, maybe tropical aroma, here it should be associated with red fruits, you know, cherry, berry, strawberries. So this is the idea and it's made like a white wine, whole cluster pressing and immediately pressed. I mean we don't leave it on the skin because, you know, there can be a whole range. You can see a whole range of red or rose wine on the shelf, from, I would say, a blushy or very light color like this up to a rose that can be, you know, almost red. So this is the trend all over the world. I think California too is. You know, in Europe is this kind of rose wise?

S. Simon Jacob: 28:00

So what's the methodology that you end up with the rose being a rose? I mean, first of all, it's whole cluster pressing.

Yisroel Flam: 28:07

Okay, yeah, no skin contact. If you want to make a darker rose, you give skin contact. You want a delicate rose and then you know, like a white wine called fermentation to retaste the aroma of the flavor and then release to the market.

S. Simon Jacob: 28:29

There's nothing else that you need to do to get even this pink color in it. As soon as you press those grapes, this is the color you get.

Yisroel Flam: 28:36

You have to select the proper vineyard that just by pressing give you a, if there's a variety, that's very dark in color. So even at light, pressing like this will give you more red color. We wanted this color and a very delicate pressing not too much, because when you squeeze it too much, you extract. You got everything. No, besides that, you suck color pigments more color pigments from the skin.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:09

What grape is this?

Yisroel Flam: 29:11

This is mainly a Syracrae and you know, if you remember this white wine, the aroma here is different and you know, to my understanding maybe strawberries, maybe the aroma I'm definitely getting strawberry taste too.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:29

Definitely strawberries.

Yisroel Flam: 29:30

And like a young, fresh, fruity, flowery. You know, here in Israel we have, you know, eight to ten summer months, so what's better than to sit and drink and enjoy a fresh white wine with like dinner or supper or whatever? Right?

S. Simon Jacob: 29:50

I agree with you 100%. I agree with you 100%. That's incredible.

Yisroel Flam: 29:55

So this was stage one now white, two whites and rosé, and, with your permission, we can go on with our ends. I would love to, I would love to To tell you a bit the evolution that flamm winery underwent with the years. You know, we are a family that grew up in the city. You know, live in the city, where we live. I still live in Rishonetsio, the children live ever in Tel Aviv. But we are not, I would say we are from the agricultural milieu. We do not, we are not farmers, we do not own vineyards and when we and, as I said, the idea of the philosophy of the flamm wine is, you know, like a typical estate, in Lampa Valley wine, for instance, you know, the farmer or the wine maker lives on his estate, is the estate, is the home, is the art. You know the culture, you know the vineyard surrounding the winery and the winery is there and he makes wine from what all, what all he grows. This is like this is an estate winery. And as we were not from that milieu, so we started sourcing out grapes. You know, to begin with, you know we began with the upper gallery. You know, the upper gallery is a very well known area for making quality wines and, as we were there, we went to the philosophy of making mainly the wines, as they were not for one terroir, for one region, so giving it a variety of names. You know Cabane, sauvignon, merlot, syrah, we had Sauvignon Blanc, chardonnay and, as we, the day one of this wine here was on 2005. We actually started making wine here next to all and, as of that point, goulart started to look for owning or buying land to plant vineyards. I want not to tell you the bureaucracy in Israel or whatever it goes on, but to cut a long story short, only in 2017 you know, 2005 was day one we finally managed to put a hand on a location in Eves Sapir.

Yisroel Flam: 32:43

Eves Sapir is opposite to Adas hospital in Jerusalem. You know, on the terraces, very nice, it's beautiful. You know, you put on the hand, you make the contract 2019. We planted the vineyard and of Eves Sapir and wine made you know, schmita, not Schmita, but you know online those kinds of things and this year will be the first time that wines made from grapes grown in Eves Sapir will be part of our blends. Looking forward to it.

Yisroel Flam: 33:29

And the other issue is that we established ourselves also in a Sauvignon vineyard. You know, givati Shiaw, it's also not far away from here, maybe about 50 kilometers down south from here. So we have two terroils actually in Jerusalem, to Daniel Eves Sapir, up in the mountains, about 700 meters above sea level, and Givati Shiaw, which is about 350 meters above sea level, but the wide exposures to the west, it's got to be about valleys. You know all the winds coming down, you know all the breeze from the sea, from the ocean, from the ocean coming here, from the Mediterranean. This is actually what is our future, according to Gola's vision. To make you know, you know, as Israelis Became more I don't say sophisticated, but that would appreciate why and to like wine and to think about wine. So a terroir means A lot more to them. And you know, if you are a terroir wine and we want to establish ourselves, when time comes, as a terroir wine, a wine is, it makes its wine from its terroir, from its vineyard on the terroir. Only we still, you know we love the galilee. The galilee is a very nice region, gives good, very good results, but we are here. We are here. So, in the meantime, until this day comes. So you see, okay, we'll go over the wise one to one and we can think of this is this is our volume.

Yisroel Flam: 35:25

Was our flagship wine? Okay, flat flan classical, yes, is a blend of five or six varieties Cabernet Sauvignon, berlot, cabernet Frappe, petit Vendour, syrah and some Malbec. Sometimes we have this Avignon Malbec, where always the principle of right here is Cabernet Sauvignon, 35-40% of the blend, and this is already a terroir wine. You see, we have here, just to give you an idea, you know you have the cashew and here this is the sign of our quartet. So this is the sign of our quartet. So we can give the sign of the quartet only to a wine that at least 85% of the blend is from the quartet. So not all our wines are. So, you see, here, for instance, we don't have it here because this is also from the upper galilee.

S. Simon Jacob: 36:27

So from the quartet, from the quartet's terroir, which is the Judean Hills, judean, Hills Very cool. What was the impetus to start that the quartet? What was the idea.

Yisroel Flam: 36:40

Okay, I can tell you what the idea of the quartet is. You know, first of all, the Jerusalem, judean Hills or the Moetsahir of the area they decided to follow and to establish by rule in Israel. Anyone can put you know. I say, in Israel, in many cases paper suffers all but by law. And if you know the American law or the French law, or the Italian law or the European law, so there are rules, what you can do and what you can write in order to tell about what you have in this bottle of wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 37:33

Appalachians.

Yisroel Flam: 37:35

And the Moetsahir. The original council decided that we want to put by law the higher, the loyal that goes in between the wine and they divided the area of the Jerusalem Hills to sub-locations, sub-places, and each the vineyard that comes, the grape that comes from the center vineyard or if the grapes are at least 85% from the terroir, so they can call Dave the wine the Jerusalem Judean Hills. It's not yet Israeli law but they are working on it in other regions that also try to follow and to do it. I think the end of the day it will be니까, and then people can look out the Judean Hills. I like it, I like Negev, so maybe I'll buy Negev Hill, appalachian and so on. But the idea of the Quartet is we are for wineries because they are also big, leading wineries With the philosophy here Leading boutique wineries. The idea here is a wine list that already established a name and I know and consider it to be a producing top end quality wise. So we have phlam, castel soa and sphera. Sphera is the white one.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:20

So, out of all of those, the only one I haven't tasted is sphera, because it's not the same, but all the rest of them I'd love.

Yisroel Flam: 39:28

And you know we are colleagues, each one works on his own and the idea is, first of all, if you go abroad, to China, to Japan, to the United States, to Czech Republic, and you are wine-flav, blah, blah, blah. So if you four come, four don't come together, so it's power Much more, but not anyone can join. In the meantime we are only four of us, about 30 some wineries in the area, but we say we have a very similar way of thinking of making wine, considering being very serious about the top end quality, and this is what we want to be. But we don't sell together. Everyone has got his own roots and his own way of selling. But when we come to a certain place, to Austria or wherever, and we have a dinner or presentation, we are the four.

Yisroel Flam: 40:49

So this is the idea of the Quartet. So the Flav Classica, which you may know I'm sure you know it is, as I said, volume wine is our flagship wine. The idea of this wine and I see it from a way you always find, especially in Israel, people that begin their way in wine and it's sophisticated wine like this or it's sophisticated wine like this. So no one can say about this, because they used to drink Coke. They used to beer maximum and you know it takes the wine.

Yisroel Flam: 41:29

What is it? It's bitter.

S. Simon Jacob: 41:32

It takes time and growth to appreciate wine. It isn't something where you can open a bottle.

Yisroel Flam: 41:42

It's a lernicum. It's a lernicum and I would say that Flav Classica being a dry red wine. It's a medium bodied wine. It's a very fruity wine and wine has got about 10 months aging in the bell.

S. Simon Jacob: 42:01

It's a great entry wine for people.

Yisroel Flam: 42:09

And in Israel, I think you can say, you know, in many restaurants it's the wildest. Many people know it and want to buy it, and so I'd say so. Here we have a 2021 harvest, a red Flav Classica, which is a blend, as I told you, grown here in the Jerusalem Judean Hills. The process of wine making is a typical red wine making process, meaning grapes are being crushed, distemmed, transferred to a fermenting tank, east is being added and fermentation starts taking place. Fermentation we know what these do. We know converting the insubstantial grapes into alcohol and carbon dioxide. Now, not like a white wine, in a red wine, the skin contact has got a big meaning in the wine process Because in the skins we have the tannins, we have the color pigment and we have the aromas and the flavor. Whatever gives the wine, you know, its body. It's fullness. So as soon as we start, fermentation takes place at the controlled temperature, because temperature is a meaningful factor in the quality of wine, as I said, the white wine and rosé, with ferment at around 10 to 14 degrees Celsius in order to be able to retain the aroma and flavor we retain at a lower temperature and in red wine is the mid-20s. So beside this, we have to have an interaction between the skins and the fermenting media and fermenting wine. Because if you let it ferment the skins will come up and then you have 80% of the volume of the tank wine fermenting and up at 20% a layer of skins. So only the upper level of the liquid and the lower level of the skin will be in contact. We do not plunge. We do a process called pumping over. We do it delicately. Plunging is, you know, the skins. You have the bitterness and by plunging too much you make harshness. So here, by pumping over, you actually take the liquid from a tap at the bottom of the tank, pump over on the top and then on the top you have a screening device that rotates. It moves all the time that the pumping over takes place and the wine penetrates through the skins and at that time it extracts color tannins and whatever is needed. The end of the process.

Yisroel Flam: 45:32

When you get a dry wine, you pump out the liquids, the young wine, from the tank to another tank. Let it stay for a while to clarify the skins. You take to a press and you press it gently, not too much. You can press too much, get some volume, but then the wine will be no good. You have to press to that extent where there is no harshness being extracted to the wine and you keep it as a press wine.

Yisroel Flam: 46:15

Then you take the wine and when it's clear it takes another month, you pump it down to the bell fermentation cell and that's the wine ages for a while. For instance, why for classical ages in the bell? For about 10 months? Because you want to get the tannins, also some tannins, from the bell and you want to get a micro-oxidulation. Slowly oxygen penetrates through the pores. Add to the wine and add complexity. When time comes we take out the wine 10 months. We take out the wine from the different bell to a tank. In the tank we add what we need with self-add oxide to protect the wine and then filter it once in order to get the clarity and bottle it.

Yisroel Flam: 47:17

After bottling, wine goes through the warehouse where it stays for a few more months in order to establish it, and you see the cork and the bottle. You see this here the diameter is 17 millimeters, the cork's diameter is 24. Now when you bottle the wine, you compress the cork and push it in to the bottle. Then you fill it up. The wine, you have the cork, you have the volume of the wine and then you have a headspace.

Yisroel Flam: 48:06

Now, as you say, a red wine, especially if you put it in your wife's fridge or at home or the shelf, whatever must be in the right position Because you don't want this headspace, because you know this is alive, this is porous. If you leave it in a steric position, oxygen will penetrate and we fill up the headspace and you get it very intensive. Now you put it in and you give it for 24-48 hours in steric position in order for the cork to get placed, to fill up, and then you put it in the right position. You can see this wine is size, a good quality cork. You see, sometimes you find a cork that's wet until here and you see, this is the only layer that the wine has to get and the cork has to get and during the line of the bottle, in every line, it evolves. You know small, because if you take a wine or a bottle and you seal it with a beer, With a bottle cap.

Yisroel Flam: 49:28

Yeah, with a bottle cap, nothing can go in through it. Here is the penetration of that oxygen molecule, where it evolves, the wine, and the wine changes, becomes more round, more supple, with the tide. Even though we say this wine, we give it. You know, always in red wine you speak about, you know how long can I age the wine people tell me and I would say is this wine 6 to 7 years, but it's excellent to drink at this state. Now, first of all, you get to look at the wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:09

It's approachable. This is now we're drinking the classic code 22, 2021. No, it's not to the show, ok 2021.

Yisroel Flam: 50:21

So you can see, you can look, you see the nice. You know the clarity, very important the nice ruby color. Then when you roll it, yeah, you get the fruit, the freshness. Look at the tears.

S. Simon Jacob: 50:40

Yep, it's good viscosity. I don't know the name of the one on the top of that.

Yisroel Flam: 50:53

Very fresh, it's pleasant. Got nice acid tiny cells there.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:05

Really nice. The majority of this wine is what Is it? Cabernet Sauvignon, yeah, okay.

Yisroel Flam: 51:17

It may vary between the 33, 35% up to 45, 48% and the rest If it's Baldex. So just a tiny bit, because we don't have it.

S. Simon Jacob: 51:28

So we just open this. We just open this, so we're not doing it justice. It really needs to breathe a little more than what we're doing. But that's very good, but that's fine. I just because it's a lovely wine, it's a very approachable and it's an incredible entry wine for people who are used to just drinking sweet wines.

Yisroel Flam: 51:56

Yes, definitely, and it's the way the evolution is. People have to go in order to think about the wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 52:05

So nowadays, when you watch the bottling, I thought they also inject into it nitrogen.

Yisroel Flam: 52:15

Ah, no oxygen?

Yisroel Flam: 52:16

Yeah, no, we can. Yeah, I'll tell you that. First of all, on the bottling line. You have, you know a way that the bottle goes into the bottling line, even though it's new. It goes through a rinsing unit, it roys its glass dust or any dust in it, then it goes over to a station where the empty bottle is being filled up with nitrogen in order to throw away the oxygen. And then you bottle it and before the cork is being put in, is the head space also nitrogen being put in? Yeah, so to eliminate the oxygen is possible, because a big amount of oxygen is bad, but, as I said, in all the process of the wine making, especially red wines, a micro oxygenation.

Yisroel Flam: 53:23

The bottle I mean the wine gets it through the barrel. Oh, the bottle gets it at the filling station. Yeah, this is good for the quality of the wine. Sometimes you find out the wine is not follow this rules, that all of a sudden you'll get a young wine and the color is brown or rusty. Yeah, and how come the young wine like this? I would say that the wine like this before seven or eight years should keep this nice you of a nice red color, right, this beautiful blue color and look at the ribs.

Yisroel Flam: 54:05

Yeah, you see the ribs are white. Yeah, usually a wine is that. Start as you have. You get orange ribs when it breaks. It starts to break. It breaks out, yeah, it breaks out. Yeah, here we have, oh, we do it Cabernet, or we do first the white, which I really like.

S. Simon Jacob: 54:29

Let's do the Cabernet first.

Yisroel Flam: 54:31

Yeah, cabernet Sauvignon is a variety wine. Cabernet Sauvignon, the most known varieties, I think. If you ask ten people, give me, give me an M for right of grape wine, eight will sell you Cabernet Sauvignon. Cabernet Sauvignon, yeah, a variety. Originated from Bourneau. In here in Israel has been since, I think, 50 years that Cabernet Sauvignon has been grown in Israel and this wine 2021, is still from the Upper Galilee, from Karan Ben Zivra.

S. Simon Jacob: 55:14

I feel the name of the call Karan Ben Zivra.

Yisroel Flam: 55:17

This is the location we grow our grapes and process, you know, as I told you, longer aging time in Oakburn. Here I'd say maybe this one, 10 months, is Oakburn, this one 14 months, 15 months. And another thing about the bells. We make use of bells only three years, meaning each year we buy new bells and every sea, every sea and the sun is going out right, meaning that the average age of a Berlin is there is Two years. And so, because we need the bill for certain use, we want to get out from the bell, you know, as a tennis, the smokiness, the micro-oxygenation, but we don't want it as a container to store. Wise right, you just want to get which can get out.

Yisroel Flam: 56:17

Yeah, and you know, and sometimes when people tell my why I tasted the wine 24 months, 50, 48 months in the mail, I said what the heck I don't want to To feel to drink wood. I want to drink a wine, I want to the wood to have the impact that we expected to be for the wine, and but not over that. We want to get the fruit, we want to get the taste, we're doing the color and whatever. How long can can the wine live, you know, at the proper storage time? So we say this one at least six to seven years. This me, I don't, I don't speak, me too, as far as I'm concerned. And 12, 15 years it can. And we have experienced with that that cabaret wise or flower wise, definitely at the age of 12, 15 years, are Still doing excellent. So this is a cabaret souvenir.

S. Simon Jacob: 57:25

I should introduce you. This is Gillard Flam, who is the CEO and also the head of marketing and everything else in the winery, and it's a pleasure to have you join us. Thank you.

Yisroel Flam: 57:38

So this is coming up in your twenty twenty one. It's a typical Cabaret, you know, go on, even though he studied in Italy. But he is very much a Lover of Friends and especially more knowledge. We all are, you know, we think, you know I don't see it number one or whatever, but to know and to enjoy a good border line, this is all come up.

S. Simon Jacob: 58:11

This is the elegance. Yeah, I think it's elegant.

Gilad Flam: 58:15

Exactly what I want to think. You know, when we're talking about Cabaret, more do this big world of Tosca me for myself, what I'm searching in? Wine, and typically now a wine. I don't say it's cover me, I'm searching, when you're searching, elegant, it's the style of why making of Golan, and I think this is I've always said to the people who drink with me I don't care what's written on the label Cabanes of in your own. Well, who knows really what is coming on this opinion it's for, you know, there are a lot of types of Cabaret, from Napa Valley to Israel, turkey, tina to Bordeaux.

Gilad Flam: 59:07

But when you are, I think, and when you're drinking wines, of Small wineries especially, you're searching For the fingerprint of the wine maker. For the Teowau of the one here, it doesn't. For me it doesn't mean anything, no, it's a venue, yeah, what you mean? That go long made this wine, that there is the elegance, the style of, because if you will Drink now, during the classical, during the Cabaret, you would drink the white label, the noble, you will see something that is it's like a Shea for, like a pendant, that you see the style of the of the person and did it. And this is what is, I think, what is nice in a small estate wineries. You're not in the industry. In the big, you know we don't have to do millions of bottles, or even with two thousand, about it doing 150, 180 thousand waters, which is not bigger.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:00:17

Yeah, no, it's, it is big, it's. You know it's funny to call a boutique, but it's compared to the other wineries. Yes, it is a boutique, but it's, but it's at a level that you can achieve Real competence. It's not, it's not like a small, it's a level.

Gilad Flam: 1:00:36

I think we are level that could. The go long can be In every tank here and you can see it's still, is still. It doesn't have someone who's working with him or he is here. He is here, is hands in our ear, on the tanks in the vineyards and you can see the style of go long which is very, very being Homebully. The big toy is coming there's a tension.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:10

It's a tension to it. It's full attention. It's full attention.

Gilad Flam: 1:01:14

Yeah, 100% here in this kind of size of winery that is still going on is full attention on the wine and you can, and you can drink it and you can feel it In the bottle, and I think this is because you know we could. We could sell and not saying it by Nothing.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:01:39

Yeah, it's not. It's not. What in this?

Gilad Flam: 1:01:44

We could sell. We could. We could sell like 400,000 bottles. We have demand. This is, for example, the 21 that this is the last bottle of the Cabana On Label are the last models, 21 classical. Now we're moving that week to the 22. Just we could sell. But, but the decision of Golan To have this attention, not to take anyone else and not to to be here and Still to make the wines after 25 years that we are making wines, I think this is, this is something that People are drinking. We wanted they feel that they will feel it and I think this is the something that is unique style way, because if you didn't make the, the other Level of jumping in size, all right to go to the half million or 400,000 which you know you could see, this is, this is the way you have to go there, to go and to and to increase the Quantities and we, we told ourselves listen, let's stop here in 180.

Gilad Flam: 1:03:03

We are not increasing our size, but we want to keep. We want to increase the quality, we don't want to increase the quantity.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:03:12

I I, I love the camellia. Yeah, I love it. I think it's an incredible white. What a great addition. It's not just a People make chardonnay is that are light and what have you. It's it's. It's so rich and it's got such a finish and it's just great. I love it. The this as well. There isn't a person who I serve this to who doesn't go. What's that? Wait a second. It has no label. But there isn't a person, a single person. I have never served it to somebody who's not Loved it. And they've all said can I get that in America? Can I get that here? Can I get that? All of them, all of them. So it's also it's wonderful that it's going towards these Mediterranean Varietals. Yeah, it's going towards them now and, and I think it's it's I Think it's fantastic, I think it's a fantastic bottle of wine.

Gilad Flam: 1:04:18

The white label is it's really because but it will go not. America goes now With small quantities because we're not doing in general not a big quantities. But you know that the idea was the white label.

Gilad Flam: 1:04:31

Yeah, was that there was the sirara's yeah and we are, as we said, like we're 25 years in a journey and in the process. This is the one people who are Making wine and we, as a pioneer, we're in a long, long journey. Yeah, we're in the process and the and you know, you always ask the French for people how do you make such a good wines? So we tell you, after we we pass the first hard 300 years, everything looks much better. We are only only 25 and we are in the process and we realized that the sirara, the combination of sirara with cab or something else, it's better. So we, and the sirara was a great A label of us that people like it very much.

Gilad Flam: 1:05:28

So we said, okay, we will do something new, but we don't know what will be the final product. We're in the process, so we cannot, you know, we cannot make the label sirara because it's not 100% or 85% sirara and we're in a process. And how can we join our one consumer and then, look, we are as a wine, as a winery, when the process it's not. You know, don't have to be shame that you're in the process, because this is life, you're always in the process, 100%. This is life. And we thought, okay, now we will make a new label, a new story, a new marketing story. Ah, what the?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:06:16

And you don't even know what it's going to end up with. Exactly, that's the biggest thing. Exactly.

Gilad Flam: 1:06:20

We didn't know how it's. So we said, listen, we knew that, we knew where that, also the Beatles. They were in the process, they did the White Album Yep. And if they could do the White Album, we wouldn't do the White Label, right, I love it.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:06:39

I think it's absolutely spectacular. I love that it's embossed in it so that it's there, but it's just the shakit. And also if a person, too many people are reading the labels and saying, oh, I'm not going to like this, or I'm not going to like that, or I'm not going to like this, and why do you have that and why do you have that percentage?

Yisroel Flam: 1:07:06

of what's the color.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:06

Yeah, and it's like Drink it Exactly.

Gilad Flam: 1:07:11

And I tell you, and I will connect you to what I told you before about the Cabernet. I think with this label you have, we wrote Flamme in Fade. You have to trust us. Don't trust if I write you Cabernet Sauvignon or I will write you Grand Vien or Bordeaux or Judea and his. Trust us as a wine with Flamme and this is and I have to improve much more because I don't write about it you trust me if you bought this bottle. You trust me already.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:07:48

I've been buying it since the very first bottles I could get my hands on, because I tasted it here. Yeah, I remember, I tasted it here the first time and it was like are you kidding? Wow, wow, so. And then I said afterwards I think it's Mediterranean, I think it's, like you know, shiraz and some others, and I said but it's not on the label. Wait a minute, I don't know whether it's. So, but I think it's fantastic. I think it's just awesome wine.

Gilad Flam: 1:08:15

Yeah, and we were very afraid in the beginning, the first time when we went with this label to the market, because you don't know how many people will react no label, white label, nothing.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:08:30

And so did it get incredible acceptance.

Gilad Flam: 1:08:36

Yeah, it's, you get feedback. You cannot be. You know it's not parv.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:08:42

Yeah, it's not parv. It's not parv, it's one or the other.

Gilad Flam: 1:08:45

But how, wow, nothing is written on the label. No, as you said, cabernet, sauvignon, syrah, ange Daniels, or name, or fantasy name. And yeah, yeah, we'll see what will be born from this label. In two or two years, I think something will be born, I don't know what.

Yisroel Flam: 1:09:04

But I like the white label. No, what I tell you, what I heard from them, is you know, 2020 was the first time right there was. There was a very small release and then the wine, please, was finished before the new vintage came in and the idea was maybe in 2021. We'll make a new label that people start to ask when is the new label come out? When is the white label come out?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:09:42

Okay, we'll continue. I'm very happy you continued with that.

Yisroel Flam: 1:09:48

Okay, with your permission after we had the cab and now we're going to discuss so much about the white label. We'll try it so we can.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:09:56

This is delicious. This is so elegant and it's just perfect. It's a very elegant cab Now let me just rinse it.

Yisroel Flam: 1:10:06

Set the rinse it out so you get See how velvet it is.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:10:19

Yeah, this is great, it's great.

Gilad Flam: 1:10:28

I think the sira this is very.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:10:32

You know, Go ahead. I should let you finish.

Gilad Flam: 1:10:36

It's a very it's the combination, the sira and cab, and if you combine it, and it will do a bit. It's a I think, and typically here to our area, it's one of the best combinations we can have here in Israel.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:10:56

So With Castel and the raseal. They also produced a blend with the sira, and it's also an incredible thing, since 2017 they did it.

Gilad Flam: 1:11:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the sira, yeah, this is great.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:11:18

You remember much better than me that Sira was a name that you couldn't sell in America. I remember that it's like you couldn't sell it in America, nobody in America. If you said sira, they went and you know, oh, you know, it's great. Whenever I want cab, I want Merlot I want, I don't want a sira at all. And it's really come of age. And especially with the blends, well, yours with your sira reserve was awesome. That was one of the first ones that really kind of broke through. And then, but now with the blends, with the sira, it gives it some spicy kick to it. That's good, it lifts it, it elevates it. But you know what else I think it does? It works because the sira works also with the spicier foods, with the Israeli cuisine, and as the Mediterranean cuisine expands, I think that the wines can't just be the same old wines, yeah, and I remember when Israel had the sira reserve.

Gilad Flam: 1:12:35

We buy sira reserve.

Yisroel Flam: 1:12:37

As you said, nobody knows, nobody's going to buy this.

Gilad Flam: 1:12:40

Yes, sira reserve. You know those days, Merlot, Cabernet, but yeah, you know, when you're getting to more and more wines and you see what's going on all over the world and what you can do with this variety, it's especially in Israel, including Israel.

Yisroel Flam: 1:12:59

It's. This is lovely, this is yeah, it is. You act really nice. You're very delicate. The Vietnamese wine.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:13:06

No, it's not. No, it's not, it's not Wait wait, wait.

Yisroel Flam: 1:13:10

Oh, the Mashiach, Wait, wait wait, golan's tied up.

Gilad Flam: 1:13:14

Golan is still Still in the meeting.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:13:17

Can we pull him out of the meeting for two minutes? For Can we taste this? You want to taste it, I want to taste it, I want to. I want to salt to taste it. Okay, and I don't need another bottle, I just.

Yisroel Flam: 1:13:29

No, no, we'll bring you a bottle. No, no, I don't want a 20. I have a 20.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:13:33

I have I have, but I brought it for us to drink, okay, and my dream was that we could actually drink it together, if it's possible. I don't want to, but don't get them yet, let's open it up and check it.

Yisroel Flam: 1:13:45

I'll bring a glass, also a glass for him.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:13:48

Taste. I screwed up the cork, but I'm just telling you you got to taste it.

Gilad Flam: 1:13:54

Oh, it's, it's also in tasting. So.

Yisroel Flam: 1:13:58

Wow, I don't want to.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:14:01

I don't want to mess them up, okay.

Yisroel Flam: 1:14:04

Look at the color.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:14:06

Look at the color. Is there any bricking? Anything at all?

Yisroel Flam: 1:14:10

No, it's still, it's still red.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:14:13

It's perfect. I still have a couple of bottles of that.

Gilad Flam: 1:14:21

Wow, I know.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:14:27

This is a 2011. This is like it's now 12. 12 years old.

Gilad Flam: 1:14:32

Yeah, 12 years old, but it's 12, yeah, wow, amazing.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:14:37

That's great.

Gilad Flam: 1:14:38

You know a story about the novel, about tasting, about Four years ago, gensis Orkinson. You know Gensis Orkinson, she was here in the visit and she tasted with us the novel 16. It was and the compliment this is, I think, the best compliment that we ever get from high level is it was that she told us listen, she was tasting the novel 16. And she told us, listen, this wine. I don't want to have this wine in a blind tasting because if I had.

Gilad Flam: 1:15:22

If someone would give me this wine in the blind, I would never think of that, I would never say that it is Israel. I would say it's one of the top Boliak wines. I would never say that it's coming from a hot country, hot climate country. And I'm Gensis Orkinson, number one taster in the world, the writer of the salt business, the Instagram company and all this and said listen, this wine I could like the WST 111.

Yisroel Flam: 1:15:52

I would fall down with this one.

Gilad Flam: 1:15:56

I wouldn't tell that this is coming from Israel and from a hot climate. So, yeah, this is aging. Very well, it's aging.

Yisroel Flam: 1:16:09

I would tell you it's aging, it's a subtle.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:16:18

They've integrated, everything is integrated so well. The only thing that wasn't well is I didn't have my aço, so I messed up the cork in the bottle. But besides that, but it's okay, you're off the road. Yeah, yeah, yeah, move that. So I have a question for you, since you're here and since your father is here what are you? Where's the future going with with flam? Where do you?

Gilad Flam: 1:16:48

Where do you see the?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:16:49

future. Wow, that's really Especially in today's world, when all the things you've been discussing.

Gilad Flam: 1:16:54

but the future is for us. Yeah, I'm not talking about what?

S. Simon Jacob: 1:16:59

are you talking about? I'm talking about flam winery. Yeah, flam winery. This, okay, I'm going to give you some.

Gilad Flam: 1:17:09

I think we are investing a lot in Evans-Sapir, which is you saw the vineyards in Evans-Sapir.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:17:16

I didn't see them, but yes, it's a huge project.

Gilad Flam: 1:17:18

You can see, you can do also in YouTube in the. Sapir Flam. And it's a huge project that we are investing the real of money in the vineyards there and to produce high, high quality.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:17:32

And what varietals are going into that what varietals will be?

Gilad Flam: 1:17:36

Cabernet, sauvignon, syrah, cabernet Fra, cabernet Fra, I think is a little bit ago.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:17:41

Okay.

Gilad Flam: 1:17:42

And we invested a lot of money in Givati-Sahayau. Yeah which is south. It's here in Yenia and the Yelavadi. We also bought an estate there in Yivati-Sahayau and I hope in a few years. We just planted more vineyards and we'll have another estate, winery, but small, not big, that will express the terroir of, Because we think it's a great terroir.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:18:13

So you think you're going to build a separate winery there, Like Razziel compared?

Yisroel Flam: 1:18:18

to.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:18:18

Castel. No, no, but that's what I mean.

Gilad Flam: 1:18:21

But it will be much smaller. It won't be like Castel is now much bigger in Razziel, but I think we will get an invest and search about the terroir there because I think it's a very, very interesting terroir, the terroir of Givati-Sahayau. And we're thinking you know, we are wine makers. I think we came to this business from being a wine lover and we're searching all the time how we can develop ourselves here in the Yelizuayau outside. You know, we really, really love wines and we want to create the best wine that can express the wild of our vineyards and what we can do. So we have a lot of thoughts about what will be the future with us, but for sure we will stay in the wine business. No, no.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:19:28

That's what we call we go, so that's.

Yisroel Flam: 1:19:32

You know, I always asked. You know it means that we are all fast, fast, fast, fast In Bordeaux. You are not considered to become in the club if you are less than 400 years of the state.

Gilad Flam: 1:19:49

So but, and you know, thanks God also, we're, I think, the timing and we have a very good luck that we were one of the group, of the first group of you know the I said it's the new way of the yes, of the boutique wine business we established in 1998 and in the 90s we were one of the first one, like Estelle, so Mandolid, we were like number four in this wave.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:20:28

Out of the quartet, the only one I haven't tasted is Spera. Spera and because I don't drink that kosher wine, but that's sad, that's the only one I haven't drunk, and they're all. You guys are all amazing together.

Gilad Flam: 1:20:45

Yeah, and I tell you, as a group, you know we meet a lot together.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:20:50

Yeah.

Gilad Flam: 1:20:51

I see. You just did an event with yeah for guest right perfect beautiful.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:21:01

It was a beautiful event. It looked amazing. It looked amazing Last Friday. Yeah, I saw, I saw and I think I was almost gonna come, but it's.

Gilad Flam: 1:21:11

Yeah, it was very short, it's such a short day, friday. And I tell you to be in such group I think you know it's my colleagues and I really I will forget. I will just say I will forget.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:21:25

Okay.

Gilad Flam: 1:21:26

I understand Because their success is my success, 100%, even Shiro's success, all success of all.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:21:36

When I talked to Amichai Luria, he also says I'm willing to talk to any winemaker here, because Israel's success is everybody's success. We're not all fighting against each other in Israel. This is like our country.

Gilad Flam: 1:21:49

This is what we're trying to and we want people to know I will fight with someone. Fight with someone who's doing very well 100%, yes, I don't want this one to be ambassadors of Israel. 100%, 100% international wineries all over the country, not only the four-thirds.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:22:10

Right, that was.

Gilad Flam: 1:22:12

That's my colleagues, and I wanted their success because they were successful. I was successful, everybody will.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:22:21

Israel. Will you know? I had an interesting thing from Amichai Luria. He mentioned something to me that I never realized, I never knew before. He said if you ferment wine in oak barrels, you don't get oak. If you ferment wine outside of oak barrels and then move them into oak barrels, then you get oak, a very strong oak.

Yisroel Flam: 1:22:48

Because fermentation is an external process. Co2 is coming out and dust is coming in. Why, in a white wine like camellia, you get some oak? Because you don't take out the wine immediately after fermentation, you leave it there. You leave it there and the yeast is there and you do what we call the mixing of the yeast in order to extract. Besides that, it also gets the oxygen coming in through the dehydration and whatever the oak gives, which is the add-ins and the. You know, the bell is being assembled over a fire.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:23:37

Yeah, so you get the smokiness Cool Israel Yofi to the other side.

Yisroel Flam: 1:23:49

Thank you very much for being on the Kosher Tehwa. It's a pleasure.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:23:52

No, I'm going to it's. Hopefully it'll publish next Thursday.

Gilad Flam: 1:23:58

It's coming and being organized is a pleasure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:24:11

This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Tehwa. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldier's safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages and, whenever possible, buy and share Israeli wine. I hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Kosher Tehwa. It was exciting and informative for me as well. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Tehwa, please check out our many past episodes. The Kosher Tehwa is also available on the Nachom Siegel Network at 6.30 pm New York time Thursday evening and on the world famous NSN app. Again, thank you for listening to the Kosher Tehwa.